AIBU to whinge about the SNP?

[SaucyJack]

I didn't vote for the SNP. Not because I didn't want to, but because I didn't have the option as I live in England.

Yet they now have the third biggest say on policies that directly affect me.

Is this fair and democratic?

For many people who voted SNP Trident is a bigger issue than independence. I know it is for me.

SNP hold no massive influence in Westminster. Nicola Sturgeon won't be in London disrupting the way people live and causing chaos to democracy as we know it because she isn't an MP.

Instead of blaming the SNP for the inequalities of the current system, get out there and campaign for change or an English Parliament. Instead of cursing the Scots look at why Labour have been so thoroughly rejected by a country who have always voted that way. Scotland could have voted 59 Monster Raving Looney candidates in and it still would not have changed the fact that the Torys have a majority.

You're not just being VU but also (sorry) a bit ignorant about how politics works. The SNP might be the third biggest party but they have no place in government, and very very restricted influence outside matters purely Scottish.

And when it comes to questions affecting Scotland, they clearly have a mandate to represent the interests of the Scottish people.

It's true that Cameron is going to have to find answer to the "Scottish problem" or risk going down in history as the man who broke the union. But he took that risk when he took the political decision to whip up anti-Labour sentiment in Scotland - he is now reaping the consequences.

It is a very unsatisfactory situation for the Scots. And even if UKIP are unpopular with a lot of people nearly 4m people voted for them and yet they have one MP. I don't think that's fair either. I voted no for proportional representation before but I think I'd vote for some form of it now.

YABU. Disagreeing with democracy when it doesn't suit your political tastes is infantile. You are always going to get people who are annoyed in a GE. That is par for the course but you cannot say it is undemocratic.

"The point is not bogus - The SNP are claiming to speak for all of Scotland, when they don't. I object to them claiming to have achieved a landslide when they only got 50% of the votes."

It is, because equally you can apply the same logic to labour and london, or the tories and most of S. England apart from london. It's not a situation unique to the SNP and besides, saying "a voice for Scotland" is not the same as " the voice of every Scot."

clarabumps YABU. Disagreeing with democracy when it doesn't suit your political tastes is infantile. You are always going to get people who are annoyed in a GE. That is par for the course but you cannot say it is undemocratic.

Not really. We don't have one single written constitution in this country, which means, in constitutional terms, we what constitutional experts term a political, as well as a legal constitution. A political constitution is supposed to have the benefit of flexibility, at the expense of certainty, as it is formed by political consensus and to some extent by media pressure (as well as pressure from other sources). There have been a number of constitutional changes in the last few years, and if there is a demand for some form of pr, it is entirely within the terms of the British constitution to adapt it to modern demand. Stifling such comment is therefore probably anti-constitutional.

Yanbu
Reform....reform....reform

*Bilberry" - I think you'll find that any cuts in public services in Scotland are due to the Westminster government's austerity policies. Westminster allocates a reduced budget to Scotland and the Scottish Government has to make the best of what it gets.

And I disagree that the SNP are Central-Belt biased. I live in the Highlands and I think that they have much more understanding of Highland issues across a wide spectrum than any of the other parties.

I absolutely agree with the need for some sort of PR, however. The SNP have been calling for this for years.

FPTP benefits the two major parties, whoever they are, so those parties are not going to want to change from that to a system that would reduce or eliminate their chances of getting an overall majority and being able to do whatever they want.

Cynical? Moi?

No, the cuts in local services are a direct result of the SNP enforcing a cap on council tax, nothing to do with Westminster.

Tbh while UKIP are around, I would never ever vote yes for PR.

Sconequeen I'm sorry thats just not true. Cuts to public services, local authorities anyway, are mainly because the SNP froze council tax and removed ring fencing.
Op, you're right, it's not fair at all. I'm sorry.

That's not quite true either, while it is true that councils have less funding because of the council tax freeze (which I don't agree with), which services are cut is decided by the councils.

My council for instance has made some very odd choices about what they've cut...so while they can blame the Scottish government all they want for less funds, the choices they've made in how to spend those funds are entirely their own fault.

It is also worth noting that council tax makes up a relatively small portion of a councils income, so freezing or increase makes a relatively small difference.

www.gov.scot/Publications/2015/02/3131/2

YANBU - Nicola Sturgeon just looks like one of the Krankies.
& her 'I'm not gonna take any crap from you English' attitude just makes me sick. Most of England would be glad to see the back her & Scotland.

Peeks into thread, more Scot bashing, leaves.

I have said on another thread, but the SNP affected seats outside Scotland.

I know a local party activist in England. He knew he was sunk when people on doorsteps and at hustings started talking about the SNP holding the balance of power in a labour government. The perception was that the SNP hate England and the English (Wales and the Welsh more mildly ) and many English voters feared that.

Bilberry council tax only pays for c. 10% of council services. Most of the council cuts people are feeling are as a result of Westminster enforced cuts.

There is huge variation in how councils choose to spend their money. Imo we need a lot more publicity around this. Compare simple things like how much LAs charge for care services, school meals, etc to see how different they are. These are choices made on a local level. They can't blame the Scottish government for everything! I've worked with a few different ones and there are so many 'postcode lotteries' I think if the public were aware of it there would be outrage!

Hopefully the 2017 council elections will see a vast improvement in the quality of our elected councillors because too many of them (all parties) aren't up to the job and that's the cause of so many of these bad cuts.

Penguins

To be fair, that perception was almost entirely fuelled by the English press. My perception as an English person within Scotland is certainly not that the SNP hate the English.

I think that, in addition to voting reform, our media also needs an overhaul. Newspapers have absolutely no integrity and will print anything, no matter how inaccurate and damaging, on matters of national importance. I genuinely think that the media coverage has contributed above anything else to bad feeling between the different parts of the UK.

most of England would be happy to see the back of her and Scotland and a nasty reference to Nicola Sturgeons looks - charming indeed.

And why did someone say why did Scotland reject Labour and decide they were good enough for England - what's it got to do with Scotland who dies it diesnt vote for Labour? Even in the unlikely event all 59 of Scotlands seats had been Labour it would still have been a Tory Gov, woyldnt gave made a blind but if difference.

All the posts I've seen from Scors who didn't vote SNP going on about how unfair it is, they don't speak for me etc - it's an election - you will never get 100% of a population agreeing and voting for the same party, don't think you would think that if it was the other way around! Someone is always going to be disappointed.

And the scare mongering in the English right wing media against the SNP was a joke. Yes of course the SNP first have Scotland's interests at heart - but this is not the same as being anti-English. And being anti-austerity could have had a good influence on policy decisions that affect everyone's lives, regardless of where they live.

LikeICan Most of England would be glad to see the back her & Scotland.

So would much of Scotland. Nearly 50% didn't vote for the SNP, but have to put up with this constant aggro and uncertainty. I don't feel that's representing me. I speak to friends who have this awful feeling of dread which started before the Referendum and has never gone away. You just do not know what they are going to do next. Theres a tendency to disrespect democratic rights, such as freedom of information or public procurement rules, and to not publish information about it. Which makes it very difficult to enforce your democratic rights. And then so many local courts have been closed by the SNP.

"What is also ridiculous is that the SNP got just shy of 1.5 million votes and have 56 seats in the house. What the hell is that all about."

It is about FPTP. I would imagine if you took any 59 English seats won by anybody, the number of votes cast for the winning candidates would add up to about 1.5 million seats.

SNP stood in 59 seats. UKIP stood in 650. If you were to divide SNP's 1,454,436 votes by 59 and multiply by 650, you get 16,023,447. (Obviously never going to happen in the real world.) Conservatives have an absolute majority with 11,334,520 votes.

I am a bit nonplussed by some of the attitudes towards SNP, and wonder if it would be the same if Plaid Cymru had done similar, or if maybe the Midlands had returned 59 MPs for a new (imaginary) Mercia Leads party. Because there has always, in my lifetime, been a 'third' party - it just used to be the Liberals (later LibDems).

most of England would be happy to see the back of Scotland - I wouldn't...
why did the Scots reject labour and decide that they'd be good enough for England - I suspect that they didn't think that, same as 37% of England didn't think I know how we can really piss off Scottish people -by voting Conservative!
Previously SNP MPs abstained from English only votes - SNP MPs voted during the first introduction of tuition fees (which Labour introduced in '97, and then tripped in '04) (incidentally they [SNP] voted against tuition fees. other Scottish MPs (mostly Scottish Lib Dem and Labour MPs voted for tuition fees in England) the idea that Scottish MPs have their devolved Parliaments have their own issues and therefore don't vote on issues affecting only England is historically not true. (incidentally Welsh and Irish MPs also voted to make English kids pay for tuition whilst their own didn't have to too.)

The complaints re the unfairness of the SNP's 56 seats also fail to take into account the fact that in terms of population Scotland has a disproportionate number of seats (though I've read someone explaining that there are good reasons, in a region-based MP system, for this to be the case).

Within Scotland, the SNP got 50% of the vote on a 77% turnout - which still isn't proportional, but less disproportional than the UK-wide snapshot would suggest.

Also, this is the first time FPTP has not screwed over a non-main party. I find it deeply ironic that there has been literally no change in terms of how undemocratic our 'democratic system' is, but it's only being complained about vociferously now it isn't benefiting only Labour and the Conservatives!