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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be depressed that women atre STILL appeasing men for a quiet life?

223 replies

Hakluyt · 30/04/2015 09:24

When I was a young woman a million years it was considered quite normal for women to put their wishes, even in quite trivial things, second to their husbands' and then third once children arrived. Men were often expected to get the best chair, the best bits of food- the household tended to revolve around their needs.

And it sometimes seems to me that not much has changed. The number of threads on here where people talk about doing things "for a quiet life", giving in because "it's not worth the hassle- I can't be doing with the sighing and huffing". Even women putting up with crap and then getting secret revenge instead of talking about things like grown ups!

I just find it so depressing that little seems to have changed. Why are we still doing this?

OP posts:
fulltothebrim · 02/05/2015 18:05

but if women choose not to put in the hours and don't want to work in the types of careers

You have demonstrated my pont well.

BertieBotts · 02/05/2015 19:17

There is a difference between this kind of thing happening on an individual level and this kind of thing happening on a mass scale.

It happens on a mass scale to women. If you can't see it, it's working!

Stitchintime1 · 02/05/2015 19:22

I'm more shocked by how women do the heavy lifting emotionally. The number of women bothered by the first wife. Or by the mother in law. Or sister in law. And you just know that he's not on some website fretting and asking for advice. Because it's all her responsibility to feel things and manage emotions.

bumbleymummy · 02/05/2015 19:37

Fair enough Hak - as long as you are seeing both sides of it. Isn't there always a bit of appeasement in relationships? As I said earlier - give and take?

full - what point was that?

bumbleymummy · 02/05/2015 19:39

stitch - I think men face some difficulties with that as well. There is this belief that it is 'weak' to seek advice and help. I don't think women are the only ones feeling things and managing emotions but I think men tend to bottle it up more.

Lottiedoubtie · 02/05/2015 23:49

Why is it women can't discuss anything without people saying 'it happens to men too'

In some cases yes, sure, it does.

But that doesn't mean it's not ok to discuss something from a woman's POV too.

Isn't shutting up about things because 'they affect some men too' the ultimate act of appeasement?

BertieBotts · 03/05/2015 00:33

Yup.

UncleT · 03/05/2015 00:41

Lottie because the strong implication from the opening post is that it's one way traffic. Not hard to understand really.

Hakluyt · 03/05/2015 05:52

"Fair enough Hak - as long as you are seeing both sides of it"

Yes, because particularly on a thread like this it's so important to make sure that men's wishes and needs are taken into consideration. Oh the irony!

OP posts:
Hakluyt · 03/05/2015 05:54

UncleT - did you see this post?"

"As I said to a man who made the same point earlier-

"It depends on why you [as a man] do it. If it's because that's the only way you know to be in a relationship, or if you are frightened to assert yourself because you don't have the physical, psychological or financial power to do so, then yes of course that's depressing."

OP posts:
pod78 · 03/05/2015 06:59

Great thread - so many valuable points raised. Sorry I haven't been able to refernce these indivually, I can only read the forum in an irregular binge so can't comment little and often.

I hate appeasement behaviour in either sex. We can decide to put others needs first without it being appeasement and out of fear, nor from being martyrs, nor from low esteem, and in healthy relationships we should expect to have this returned.

I feel for anyone male or female who feels the need to give in for a quiet life - whether it is because they have been raised to expect nothing better or whether they have ended up with a partner whose expectations/ demands/ responses mean they fear the repercussions, or in fact where people appease because their childhood/ adult experiences shaped them that way and in fact their current partner does not want/ need to be appeased; because giving in for a quiet life robs both partners of the chance for a genuinely happy compromise and/ or the chance to be heard and valued. Appeasing behaviour offends me hugely.

I think it does not reflect well on women/ feminists if we cannot say that men can be affected by dominating behaviour and lead unhappy lives, and spare a moment to empathise. This thread may be discussing attitudes on a more societal level where certain attitudes toward women are endemic, but individual experience does count. As others have said it is perhaps the issue of domination that is the greater issue/ evil.

I find it so sad and frustrating that it is still common for many men to use the "wife will give me grief" excuse to other men. Either because they are selfish bastards who believe this is an acceptable atitude to have about their wives, or because they are not able to stand up and show that actually they do respect their wives as equal partners in case their "mates" say they are under the thumb. Argh.

As to the original AIBU - maybe it is just a matter of statistics; given that in historical terms sexism is still only newly discussed at a societal level and is only slowly improving, I guess there just aren't that many men around who are completely free of ingrained poor attitudes toward women.

So realistically, most women are going to have to settle for a man who will have some behaviours/ ideas that need challenging. This doesn't make it OK to accept really bad behaviour, but it is always going to be hard on individuals to constantly fight against it - sometimes too hard and so people don't find the strength and so appease. The result is unhappiness and inequality and an opportunity for improvement and therefore benefit for the individual and for society is lost. It is truly sad.

It is also sad that if my idea about statistics is right, that to avoid any 'fighting for change' in their everyday lives that many women feel they must choose a less than ideal husband/ partner or none at all. Clearly there are just not enough 'untainted' men to go round.

I totally agree that many women are far from 'ideal' too in terms of what I consider to be fair and humane treatment of others. I have often moaned and been incredulous that a fair amount of women I have known have men who will bend over backwards for them when the women are selfish bitches who aren't at all appreciative, when I am having trouble finding a man who will be fair to me. Yet, equally I couldn't have a relationship with a man who would appease/ be so submissive in this way - I want the elusive middle ground.

Humankind is so far from a fair utopia, that men (and women) who can deliver truly fair and equal, healthy, democratic behaviour in relationships are sadly I think in the minority.

pod78 · 03/05/2015 07:31

By the way, I think for proper insight into the collusion of women in perpetuating sexism/ misogynisitic/ unequal attitudes and the after effects of unfair relationships, one has to read this thread in conjunction with the thread on AIBU where a man is concerned that his girlfriend is not paying her pre-agreed portion of holiday costs www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2368591-To-want-to-have-someone-pay-their-way? and just witness some of the responses.

Not a lot of equality going on there IMHO, particularly with the recent poster saying the non-payer in question should free herself from his expectation to pay her share and instead go on a singles holiday where she could "be treated like a lady"!

morage · 03/05/2015 09:05

It is tiring to constantly have threads about women, derailed to focus instead on men. We are never allowed to forget about men and their needs. A clear symptom of the sexist society we live in.

pod78 · 03/05/2015 09:16

Don't let it derail then Morage, pause to address the issue raised then carry on as appropriate. I don't see the male comments as trying to derail, just trying to join in and wondering where therir own behaviour/ experience fits in.

The 'joke' was in bad taste given many women's experiences but FutopiaDad did then say men should stop taking the piss so we wouldn't have to keep fighting/ appeasing. No harm done, it isn't going to stop us discussing anything.

I think we should be depressed that anyone is appeasing anyone for a quiet life - but it doesn't stop me being able to discuss the specific issues that women face.

bumbleymummy · 03/05/2015 09:27

Hak, but it is an issue that men can face as well. Why shouldn't they be considered?

Good posts pod.

Hakluyt · 03/05/2015 09:28

I do keep posting this-
It depends on why you [as a man] do it. If it's because that's the only way you know to be in a relationship, or if you are frightened to assert yourself because you don't have the physical, psychological or financial power to do so, then yes of course that's depressing

  • and none of the men or people concerned about the position of men seem interested in addressing it.
OP posts:
Floppityflop · 03/05/2015 09:31

Interesting about only 25 per cent judges being women. This is not great of course. However, you also have to take into account that when you become a judge in many cases you will be taking a massive drop in earnings. Clearly only senior lawyers become judges but I wonder whether women lawyers feel less inclined to go to the bench, having perhaps overcome certain obstacles to make it in their profession. Perhaps society is telling them that if their husbands are SAHDs they need to earn the maximum amount of money possible... Men lawyers on the other hand feel no such pressure and go in pursuit of that self-fulfilment. Only a theory of course.

bumbleymummy · 03/05/2015 09:33

I replied to that up thread Hak - as long as you see both sides of it. You replied with a sarcastic comment about how it's so important to consider men's needs and wishes.

morage · 03/05/2015 09:38

It can be hard to see how you are subtly dominated in a relationship when you are in it. It can be easier to see from the outside that that is happening. And I do see men's needs and wishes in a relationship generally being given more importance.

One of the obvious ways is in how often the couple have sex. If the women wants it less than the man. she usually ends up "compromising" and having sex more than she wants to.

rainbowdashpony · 03/05/2015 09:58

I realise some marriages are like that Morage, but there are plenty of men that put women's needs first

suzannecanthecan · 03/05/2015 10:04

I'm not so sure about that, I think it is more common for the partner who wants less sex to determine what happens

Hakluyt · 03/05/2015 10:13

I replied to that up thread Hak - as long as you see both sides of it. You replied with a sarcastic comment about how it's so important to consider men's needs and wishes."

No, you didn't reply. You said "as long as I see both sides" as if both sides were equal. As if both men and women defer to each other in equal numbers and for the same reasons. My considered response was- and has been throught the thread that this is a gendered issue. That there are of course, men who are emotionally abused and cowed into appeasement. But that when most men talk about giving in for a quiet life they are not talking about this- they are talking about "getting earache from her indoors" if they stay for a 3rd pint, or allowing their wives free rein over subjects that they don't really care much about, like interior decor and stuff like that.

OP posts:
Lottiedoubtie · 03/05/2015 20:48

Refusing a 3rd pint with the 'better not upset 'her indoors'' excuse is in my experience a socially acceptable thing for men to say when actually what they mean is 'I'm a bit tired now mate, I fancy going home'

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