Working mums get all the shit and end up with no career

[farewellfigure]

Hi. I really don't know if I've just a bee in my bonnet or whether workplaces in general really are unfair and women get such a raw deal. It's all very emotional at the moment as our department has just announced that 2 out of 10 of us will be made redundant in the next month. I'm applying for an admin/assistant role in my DS's school and I really hope I get it. I'm actually really excited but I can't help pondering over the fact I will become the cliché of a career woman who has to give it all up.

Anyway, at work, there are 3 designers who are part time, and 2 part time writers. We are all mums who had careers... we were managers, department heads etc. Then we had babies and came back part time and weren't allowed to be managers any more. And how about the men we used to manage whose wives had babies? They are now managers, department heads etc. It drives me NUTS. In DS's school, there are so many mums who had careers, and are now dinner ladies, TAs, admin assistants etc, it's just not funny. Not that there is anything wrong with any of those jobs whatsoever. But it just seems so unfair to me. I know having children is a choice, and I chose to do it. And I chose to go back part time. Yes... all my choices because I actually wanted to see my DS a bit every day and have a relationship with him. But basically I waved good bye to my career and now it looks like I'll have to wave good bye to the job as well.

There are 2 young women in the office who will probably get to keep their jobs when the redundancies come because they are young and full time and 'fresh'. WIBU to say to them, 'When your time comes, and you choose to have babies, come back full time. Put your DCs in nursery all day every day and keep your management roles. Otherwise you can kiss good bye to your high-flying careers and do what all the other overlooked mums end up doing'. Bitter? Me? Just a wee bit. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and maybe a bit of perspective! And I'm giving myself a . Is that allowed?

I agree that those of us with adult children don't sit around and have long and meaningful discussions about how many times a day we changed their nappies, or indeed whether it was mum or dad who did the nursery pick up and cooked dinner on Tuesday nights in 1992, or whether mum or dad or both or neither came to a school assembly in 1996!

As long as children are loved, cared for well and have secure attachments, they thrive, and honestly, it doesn't have to mean the Mother sacrificing her career and getting all the 'shit' as the OP describes.

IME though, it often seems to be the mother who chooses to prioritise her husband's career over Her own, and is quite happy to spend more time at home, so it seems odd to then complain that this will inevitably have an impact.

Even with just a few short years working 3 days, my pension has taken a knock, and isn't as good as dh's who has unbroken full time employment. I don't complain though because I happily took the two days off while the children were babies; I felt it was the best of both worlds and privileged to have that opportunity. If I'd stayed on 3 days long term, my employments prospects and pension would be shot to pieces. We can't have it both ways- you make your choices (preferably as a couple and both in agreement) and then get on with it!

There is nothing to stop people setting up companies where they employ women who work a few hours a day. I prefer to own rather than be someone's PAYE slave. When I engage men and women to do work for me (I have no employees) they can do the services whenever they choose working around whatever hobbies or children or other work they have as long as it's provided on time.

However in most jobs of worth the more experience you have the better you are - you tend to be better at 10 years than as a new graduate for example so if you've done 2 hours a day of operations rather than 7 hour jobs or you've done 1 hour court hearings but never an all day one because you can't travel you are going to have less experience as a doctor or barrister. If you're a filing clerk then it may well not matter as by week 3 you might be as good as you're ever going to get. So just depends on the work.
The bottom line is children and their mothers rarely benefit from mother's sacrificing their careers or going part time so by all means do it but as an indulgence to yourself which you'll probably later regret. Don't do it because you have been conned by a sexist family, husband or society into thinking it is "best". It's not best. it's often worst which is why men choose not do it of course.

Couldn't agree more OP.

My work operates a performance based pay system to get out of their equal pay responsibiltes. Its shocking. I'm the only female in the department and the worst paid by a very considerable amount. This was only after having 2 maternity leaves in the space of 4 years, each time taking 6 months.

The graduates I trained 5 years ago are now all my seniors. After my first, I came back full time but I just couldn't do the overtime, and round the clock availabilty they unofficially expect of you. I have to leave at 5 wether that emails been sent or not. I'm currently doing a 3 day a week phased return after having my second, and I have no idea what to do. My first is just about to start school which makes things 10x harder, but right now they expect full time work within those three days! And they don't bloody pay me for the effort they expect. I know as much as my seniors, I often know more and do a better job, but I'm a mother! And in my company thats pretty much a black mark against your name.

Yanbu but it won't change until the notion that "women have children" is defunct. ditto "working mothers".
I want to hear about men having children, and men requesting family friendly hours.
Men leaving early because school has called about their child throwing up. When the endless debate, which has gone on as long as I can remember, about the dilemma of career OR children for women starts also being about whether men can have it all too then we might be able to actually move on from women constantly stepping back and stepping down.
And it shouldn't be about working part time. I work just about part time, but I do a full time job!

I will never, never get promoted in my current job though.

I think you are right. I was very lucky to be offered my current role part time, but I do get all the crappy jobs and none of the good bits that my full time colleagues get, and no career progression, but what is the answer? It's not my employer's fault, but it is frustrating. I'd rather that than not spend the time with my children. When one door closes...

YANBU. If you are able to negotiate a PT return to work after maternity leave us is very hard to make your next career step as PT jobs can be difficult to find. So your career stalls and you are on the mummy track. The thing that I struggle with most about this is the boredom of being stuck in the same job for years.

Yanbu. There is no earthly reason why most jobs couldn't be part time, and why being part time means sacrificing your career. The work place is designed on the assumption that workers don't have caring responsibilities, be that of children or elderly or disabled relatives. Evening meetings, overtime and nights out with clients are expected in so many jobs; this culture only exists because it's assumed there will be someone else at home with the kids. Thus even working full time but having to do the nursery pick up can work against you.

When I rule the world it will be the norm for both parents to go part time when their kids are small. After all, switching from a 6 day week to a 5 day one didn't stop the world turning, why can't all parents work 3 or 4 days on rotation?

I consider myself to be lucky I get To work part time as I get to spend more time with my kids than my husband.
It does entail a bit of career sacrifice but you can't have everything - to be honest the men get promoted far quicker to the v few management roles there are in my female Dominated job as they seem to be singled out from the start.
I see now as career maintenance.
Most of my friends have managed to stay in their chosen careers though, maybe coasting a bit but they aren't all becoming dinner ladies and ta's.

It sounds as if I'm in a fairly unusual situation because both dh and myself did get family friendly hours. And for a few years, when our second child was 1-5, we were both working 3 days (and some occasional freelance/contract extra). This wasn't sustainable any longer term though and he went back full time while I remained part time in order to accommodate childcare (particularly difficult when your children have ASN) and the various needs of school aged children. We couldn't afford to both remain part time and he got the best opportunity first. I don't like to think about what this has done to his pension and frankly, mine is laughable.

Some days I think we've been incredibly lucky to have the flexible working opportunities we've had, and other days I do feel a bit resentful that I'm in a job that I'm way over-qualified for and not where I saw myself at my age. It's not just having children though - and it's true that I made the choice to be with them, at times I've felt like I had no choice when I saw how unhappy the alternatives made them but it WAS a choice. My current position is definitely in part due to lack of jobs, cuts and restructures etc as well.

Having said all that, I haven't given up all hope of a career. I agree that young people should be given a more realistic expectation. I think parents often have a plan for the baby years and think it gets easier when they hit school, but not in my experience or that of many people I know.

I agree that the 9-5 5 days a week idea is outdated. There are threads on MN bemoaning the fact that people have to take days off to wait for appointments etc and questioning why. In a lot of public sector areas increasing the hours would increase costs but there are plenty of jobs that could be done differently.
Long commutes and long hours don't work easily for both parents unless you can afford to pay for care or have able and willing family.
I've been lucky to go part time with my employer and be promoted whilst part time. If I were to be made redundant then I stand almost no chance of finding another job part time. There is no reason why many jobs can't be shared or split, why part timers can't manage a part time staff.
But I admit it hasn't occurred to me to advertise one of my current vacancies as reduced hours when maybe I could. Hmm.

It is hard. I went back p/t after DS but as it was essentially 4 days my work load wasn't reduced at all.

I had a stressful few years with some health issues, was always at that point where I could just about cope if everything ran smoothly, but it never did. I was taking work home and writing up appraisals in the evening, whereas DH who worked f/t never did.

I got to cracking stage and decided that when DS started school I needed to rejig my hours and reduce a bit more but I knew that I couldn't feasibly do the job in the hours I wanted to work. I therefore took the decision to go down a grade.

It has huge upsides - no longer stressed, am better parent ( really regret DS's early years which I feel I didn't enjoy properly) and am reasonably fulfilled at work. I earn a reasonable salary, although not as good as before, and am continuing to make contributions to my pension. Also it's nice not to be carrying the can all the time, pre DS I was promoted young, and in my current position I'm watching and learning all the time, I can honestly say that I have learnt loads over the past 2 years.

Downsides are that I see others being promoted along side me where I know I could do a better job. However thankfully in our team it tends to be more younger women that are getting promoted than men, so I comfort myself with the fact that I used to be like that. Also rather comfortingly I am pretty sure that when I do want to get my career going again then it shouldn't be difficult to move back up as I'm always being asked if I fancy it, provided I'm able to work more or less f/t. The job can be a bit dull at times, but I try to keep it fresh by moving sideways and keeping my training and qualifications up to date.

Ideally DH and I would both work p/t, but the reality is that having started out on the same salary, his earnings have risen substantially because he has gone contracting, whilst I maintain security for the family by being permie, so if we both cut back then we'd lose a lot of income.

In the end it comes down to family choices. I choose to be the one who works p/t, there are a lot of advantages to it. I guess the difference from me to many others is I'm not trapped - as I said if I wanted to start moving up the ladder again then I think it wouldn't be too hard for me to do that process.

Nobody forces mothers to go part time though, if they choose to do so then they know the risks they are taking.

Most men don't get a choice as they are expected by nature of their sex to work full time. Many have to support their partners as they don't work or work fewer hours so their own choices are more limited.

I disagree, Littlemonsters, I definitely didn't know the risks I was taking. Extra legislation re: parental leave & flexible working kicked in around my elder child's birth and I really thought that this a) meant a shift in attitudes towards part time working parents and b) that men would request it as much as women. Yes, I was probably very naive.

PS I have reread my previous post and I don't mean to suggest that children are unhappy in childcare. That's specific to my own children (in fact ONE of my children .)

you might want to check out this link

timewise.co.uk/awards/2014-winners/

It goes to show that being part time doesn't necessarily preclude a successful career - if the organisation supports the person wanting to work part time.

And don't necessarily assume that you won't get another role which is part time. Since I had DD1 I have been offered 6 roles on a part time basis. (of which I have taken 2). Of these only 1 (ironically my last job - see post above) was actually advertised as part time

But BadPoet- it's up to couples to make use of the legislation available to them! It's no good complaining unless couples are actually prepared to put the theory into practice.... Choosing to share parental leave between them, choosing for dad rather than mum to go part time etc...

I'm an 'oldie' and paternity leave didn't even exist when I had my three dcs. I'd have chewed my arm off for the very good entitlements parents have available to them nowadays! I had 12 weeks maternity leave and DH had one day off for the actual birth. If I was giving birth today, I could have 6 months off, DH could have 6 months off, we could both request flexible working (or indeed both continue working full time.)

Like I said, there's never been a better time in history to have equality as parents if you want it. But people do have to choose it.

Lines - as I say in my first post, we did choose it! We both worked a 3 day week for 4 years, and had other flexible arrangements before and after that. I was possibly naive in thinking that more people would choose to do so and that it would be genuinely supported by employers.

I do agree with you OP. Yes it is a choice to step back so you can spend more time with your DC but, unless you are very fortunate, your career inevitably suffers.

I am in that exact position now - having to choose between choosing career progression which would mean returning to full time work (which would mean my DC being in childcare & school from 8.00 till 5.30 5 days a week and I would have to cancel 2 after school activities that my youngest currently does on my day off) or staying in my current part time role and being able to do 2 morning and 2 afternoon school runs a week. Hobsons choice isn't it?

I am so frustrated as this role is the natural next move for me and I have been developed to be able to move into that role (not a foregone conclusion as I would have to apply etc) but have recently been informed that they would not be prepared to consider part time

I really do feel, rightly or wrongly, my career has been halted by my decision to opt to spend time with my DC whilst they are growing up.

I worked part time for a few years. There was no chance of getting a better part time job. For a better job I had to go full time again.

Employers are often not very creative. It seems many would sooner have - as a poster up thread said - mediocre men in full time managerial positions than brilliant woman in part time managerial positions.

I never felt I was treated any different to men when I went job share after having my first child. I went back again after my second and returned full time after my third to my Senior Management role. I managed perfectly well to see my children every day and have a relationship with them OP. My careen never suffered at all.

kansas part time jobs in my (male dominated) industry just don't seem to be created. The default is full time, agencies are the norm and they're all 'Oh, they want full time, sorry' and getting to the point where you could actually discuss it with someone who could say, yes 25 hours would work, is almost impossible without pissing the agency off.

It's a massive bonus if you get out of afternoon school runs! Why do people enjoy them?

Yes we all know male or female that we reap what we sow. If you have experience of 2 years of surgery or arguing cases in court you will tend to be worse at and less experienced than someone with 6 years. It's just common sense. Obviously if work is work you get no better at the more you do like serving in a shop it's different.

Plenty of us who have always worked full time as parents have had good relationships with our children.

Also it just depends onthe job. Daughter 2 sent me a Branson quote about when you love your work it's a hobby which is exactly my view - I adore it and hers. Daughter 1 replied to us just before 1am after 18 hours into that working day...... and was not quite so happy with hers.

I think for some men and women hours of childcare and domestic stuff is something we are very lucky to avoid and it is win win because we get the promotions, high pay, status and children who admire our lives and work. If you stay home or work short hours you get what is coming to you.

Giddy - obviously I don't know your industry so can't really comment. But personally I would wait until i was offered the job - or at least at 2nd interview before broaching the subject. part time is pretty rare in my field too - at least at a senior level - but once somebody has decided they already want you, then they might be willing to negotiate.

I agree kansas but it's such a minefield of not wasting people's time or getting a 'reputation' at an agency.

Couldn't have said it better myself Lotus

Bollocks