Working mums get all the shit and end up with no career

[farewellfigure]

Hi. I really don't know if I've just a bee in my bonnet or whether workplaces in general really are unfair and women get such a raw deal. It's all very emotional at the moment as our department has just announced that 2 out of 10 of us will be made redundant in the next month. I'm applying for an admin/assistant role in my DS's school and I really hope I get it. I'm actually really excited but I can't help pondering over the fact I will become the cliché of a career woman who has to give it all up.

Anyway, at work, there are 3 designers who are part time, and 2 part time writers. We are all mums who had careers... we were managers, department heads etc. Then we had babies and came back part time and weren't allowed to be managers any more. And how about the men we used to manage whose wives had babies? They are now managers, department heads etc. It drives me NUTS. In DS's school, there are so many mums who had careers, and are now dinner ladies, TAs, admin assistants etc, it's just not funny. Not that there is anything wrong with any of those jobs whatsoever. But it just seems so unfair to me. I know having children is a choice, and I chose to do it. And I chose to go back part time. Yes... all my choices because I actually wanted to see my DS a bit every day and have a relationship with him. But basically I waved good bye to my career and now it looks like I'll have to wave good bye to the job as well.

There are 2 young women in the office who will probably get to keep their jobs when the redundancies come because they are young and full time and 'fresh'. WIBU to say to them, 'When your time comes, and you choose to have babies, come back full time. Put your DCs in nursery all day every day and keep your management roles. Otherwise you can kiss good bye to your high-flying careers and do what all the other overlooked mums end up doing'. Bitter? Me? Just a wee bit. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and maybe a bit of perspective! And I'm giving myself a . Is that allowed?

Yanbu.

The biggest drop out rate for women at our workplace is when their children start school. Many return from mat leave to work 4 days a week and successfully sustain a career comparable with ft colleagues (its a fairly egalitarian workplace with many female senior managers with children).

But it all changes when school starts. The scrabbling to cobble together expensive/unsuitable/scarce after-school/holiday care etc becomes intolerable.

*shewept, you quoted
Until there's a properly level playing field where there's an expectation that men will share the childcare rights and responsibilities equally, this will continue to be the case.

And replied
This is a difficult one, because it also counts on women to happily pass up the chance of being a sahm. And lots don't want to.*

I don't see why an expectation that men and women share childcare would stop individual families from deciding on an unequal division of labour. Do you imagine a feminist utopia where all fathers will be forced to cut their hours at work?

There are a couple of issues here:

1. the expectation that the woman will be the SAHP

2. The expectation that most careers must be done ft or nothing

I would like to see the focus shift so that (2) is improved. Workers should be able to work pt and flexibly (both man and woman) so it's not a case of one working parent never seeing their kids and the other losing the career andgoingdementedathome (no idea why I can't make strikeout work properly...)

I shifted my career focus (from City law firm ft) to in-house (pt) in a place with an understanding culture and boss. They reap the rewards of offering me flexibility as they get me over and above my contracted hours (checking phone etc) which I work around family and don't begrudge. Many ft roles could be job shared.

The next issue on the horizon is that of childcare. Finding care for holidays is an utter nightmare. It's also getting more difficult to manage DDs homework and reading and she gets older and needs time with DH and myself once home from school. Any tips on the latter 2 points gratefully received!

I kind of see where you are coming from, OP.

I also think that, sub-consciously, some, perhaps many, women look at some senior management or directorial roles and decide that they simply aren't that interested enough to make the sacrifices to get to the top. Spend more time on office politics or more time at home? Miss key events in family life or travel a lot for work? Sometimes the game doesn't seem worth the candle and perhaps women have a measure of emotional intelligence that makes them decide not to go for it?

I think sometimes it's hard, if you're a well-educated, intelligent woman in whom a lot of time and money has been invested to admit to yourself and others that you don't want, for perfectly good, sane reasons, to make the sacrifices to get to the top.

The vast majority of mums I've ever spoken to want a job (not necessarily a career) certainly once their dcs are school age.

Yes so after being a sahm then? Most women I know and on here, wish to be the sahm when their children are small. I am aware some don't, I was one of them.

I'm a dad who works full time. My wife is a SAHM. I'd love to swap roles and be a SAHD while she goes to work. Ain't gonna happen though! My wife likes the current arrangement and I can't say I blame her.
Not all women want to work after having kids, and equally not all men do either.

The answer is to decide ( as a family) what you want as something has to give. When my DCs were younger I wanted a career not a job and my DH wanted to continue in his interesting but much less well paid profession. I took minimal maternity leave, continued to work long hours and was treated exactly the same as male colleagues who were fathers. My DC allowed his career to take a slight back seat (still the same professional career as he had very flexible hours) and did all the child care around the edges of our nannies. It is a choice. Either one of you does what my DH did or you buy in a huge amount of child care.

DH not DC

reluctantcamper Yes yes. It's this.
The thing that would get to me if I let myself dwell on it is working for thoroughly mediocre men who are where they are because they're the right age, the right gender, and full time.

Thank you. I think you've hit the nail on the head from my perspective. My boss is laughably bad. I mean he could not manage a bag of cats. His people skills are beyond appalling. He sprays his underarms with deodorant IN THE OFFICE (ok maybe that's a bit lighthearted but seriously). He is single, a lads lad, lives alone, has no commitments. Oh it's just too awful but he is basically the boss because he was 'the next in line' and the Board couldn't come up with a good enough reason to 'not give him a go'. They have admitted that they were wrong but can't do much about it now. He's been on management courses but they cannot teach someone to be better with people. You've either got it or you haven't.

And yes to holiday childcare. DS goes to a play scheme which doesn't run during the summer half term or the last week of the summer holidays.
Some years that's fine as we take our holidays at the same time. But some times it just doesn't fit with what we want to do/when we want to go away. And if you work ft when on earth are you supposed to do reading/homework etc. herethereandeverywhere you are absolutely right there.

I am hoping to get the job in the school because it's closer to home, I'll see more of DS, have more time in the evenings to do stuff, and because I won't have to find (and finance) one single tiny scrap of holiday childcare. Plus I might actually get a bit of respect which is sadly lacking where I currently work.

At the end of the day it depends what you as a family works best. I was part time for first 5 years until by DP lost his job. I then went full-time and he stayed at home 'cos it was easier for me to get a better paid job.

Sometimes I would like to be at the school gates, sometimes my DP would like to one working. In an ideal world we would both have well paid part time jobs that we loved and fulfilled our careers!!

But, in reality that's not going to happen :)

I generally agree with you, OP, but it is not like that everywhere. DH and I both work for government agencies and the culture is massively different. Senior managers are as likely to be female as male; most of us have kids and many work either part time or compressed hours - and the men are as likely to do that as the women.

There are, of course, other problems - as there are in all workplaces, but it would never occur to me that someone wouldn't get a promotion or a contract renewal where I work because they are part time or have kids.

Completely agree. Young women do need to be made aware of the reality. I think people are afraid communicate in case it seems like it's denigrating the decision to put family before a career. Obviously it's fine if people want to put family before a career, but it is bad for society if it is seen as the default for women (because men dominate higher posts which is bad for everyone imo).

toomuch I genuinely don't know what you are saying.

What I am saying is that many women, understandably, don't want to give up the sahp role and want to spend their children's early years with them. It's not just about how society views sahd, it's about coming to an agreement as a family.

I agree with notquiterural, it's about deciding as a family. My DH and I were fortunate enough to both reduce to 4 days. This took a lot of persuading both our bosses. His boss was so surprised he asked even though he knew I earned the most. As long as it's assumed the women will have to adapt her career/ arrange childcare/ organise the summer holiday care the situation won't change.

Agreed OP! We're in a shit situation in this country where it is rare and difficult to build a career based on part time work. Other European countries value part time work. My dh will be looking after dd who is four months old whilst I go back to work part time until he gets his first academic job.

The number of women I've had call me up on my decision to go back to work is shocking!!

I hear you OP.

I went back 3 days a week after DC1 was born. Trying to do my full time job in part time hours was almost laughably horrendous. With hindsight, I should either have bitten the bullet and gone back full time, or adjusted my hours to ensure I was at the least in the office most of each day. Either of which would have worked career wise but neither of which I wanted to do at the time due to wanting to spend as much time with PFB as possible.

I opted to do the SAHM role instead and two more DC later I'm still at home. I am exactly one of those women you talk about-had highly regarded and well paid career with post-grad level qualifications and I will probably end up applying for a TA job at school or similar.

My problem is not that I wouldn't enjoy doing that kind of job. I probably would. But I miss my old career, whilst acknowledging I couldn't manage to juggle the demands of it even with one DC let alone 3. For me it simply wasn't possible to continue in that career part time. And, at the time, I didn't want to do full time. And I couldn't find a compromise. And now it's probably too late.

It depresses me but I don't know what the answer is.

Clearly you have a point and it must be very difficult in your workplace at the moment. I work in a very female dominated profession so I see less of this, women occupy nearly all the roles in primary teaching! However I agree with others that it's the part time aspect of it that creates the problem I think. Also, it is up to each individual family what you decide to do. If you both want to go to work full time then you can do so and not sacrifice your career, and obviously there are all sorts of other combinations that work for people.

I suppose the thing is you can do anything but you can't do everything!

I think I agree OP. It is not the passing over of PT people, it is the assumption that the best person for the job is the person with the least outside commitments, who can be there all the time. I don't actually think that does make you the best for the job. It just means you are there longer doing a thoroughly average job of it.

Also no different in schools. 4% of men in primary schools are heads, versus 2% of women in 2012

Completely agree OP. I have returned to work 3 days a week and several positions have come up at the next level that would be perfect for me. I have spoken to the managers and none would consider making the position part time (even 4 days a week) or a job share. I am stuck where I am (have hit a glass ceiling on the payscale) unless I go full time and I am not comfortable with putting my child in full time child care. Don't know where to go from here, I work in science and jobs are few and far between at a part time level beyond a basic technician post! My employer has all of these Athena Swan awards to prove how brilliantly equal and diverse they are too. Equal my arse. I was very naïve before I had dd, I didn't realise just how much it would be me making all the sacrifices.

The majority of working Mums I know struggle hugely with the p/t f/t choices. I went back to work f/t underwriting mortgages after DS1 was born but between 8am and 7pm weekdays I didn't see him. Two and a half years in, the company offered everyone voluntary redundancy and I practically chewed their arms off to escape. It was far and away the best choice I ever made.

I missed to camaraderie and being around adults and struggled to adjust, but after DS2 was born 4 years ago I went back to college and studied to retrain as a TA. I did level 2 and level 3 and am now studying HLTA. It's not a career in the same sense; there's only so far you can go within schools unless you want to become a Teacher or a Head (I don't want either). But it is what worked for our family, it ensures I get plenty of time to be here, there and everywhere for the DCs and it means I still have some semblance of a life outside the home, which I desperately need to feel fulfilled.

I think if you have to give up your career and you don't want to the problem is with your partner, not your employer or society.
You have the choice whether to have a career, job, or sahp nobody can make that choice for you.
Obviously for some people finance comes into it and there is no choice, but this aside its up to you what you do.
Why do people make such a fuss rather than telling their partner what they want and expect?

YANBU.

I gave up my 12 hour day career rather than spend my time compromising for little effect. If our circumstances had been different DH may have been a SAHD as his career is much easier to do part time / self employed / from home.

I think the nature of the job you do is key and I do think young people should be made aware of this.

However I do know people who reached the very top of my profession and then had children and then it is easier to work part time in a management role. My perception is that in the last 15 years it has become harder to get far enough up the management chain quickly enough to do this in a lot of professions.

It's fascinating to hear about all you mums who are working 3 days a week with no prospect of promotion or management jobs. It is completely unfair. I reckon I work twice as fast as some of the people who are ft but it makes no odds. I am still 'the lowest of the low'.

I've sent in my application form to the school. I am properly excited. I wouldn't have thought it 2 weeks ago. It's amazing how being offered voluntary redundancy has lifted the wool from my eyes and made me realise that my position completely sucks and that it can't go on like this!

I agree with whoever said work culture needs to change but I'd also add that men need to change - if more men put their heads above the parapet and asked to work pt because they wanted to take some responsibility at home, it would change things enormously. Children wouldn't be seen as a women's issue, as they sometimes (not always) are now.