Working mums get all the shit and end up with no career

[farewellfigure]

Hi. I really don't know if I've just a bee in my bonnet or whether workplaces in general really are unfair and women get such a raw deal. It's all very emotional at the moment as our department has just announced that 2 out of 10 of us will be made redundant in the next month. I'm applying for an admin/assistant role in my DS's school and I really hope I get it. I'm actually really excited but I can't help pondering over the fact I will become the cliché of a career woman who has to give it all up.

Anyway, at work, there are 3 designers who are part time, and 2 part time writers. We are all mums who had careers... we were managers, department heads etc. Then we had babies and came back part time and weren't allowed to be managers any more. And how about the men we used to manage whose wives had babies? They are now managers, department heads etc. It drives me NUTS. In DS's school, there are so many mums who had careers, and are now dinner ladies, TAs, admin assistants etc, it's just not funny. Not that there is anything wrong with any of those jobs whatsoever. But it just seems so unfair to me. I know having children is a choice, and I chose to do it. And I chose to go back part time. Yes... all my choices because I actually wanted to see my DS a bit every day and have a relationship with him. But basically I waved good bye to my career and now it looks like I'll have to wave good bye to the job as well.

There are 2 young women in the office who will probably get to keep their jobs when the redundancies come because they are young and full time and 'fresh'. WIBU to say to them, 'When your time comes, and you choose to have babies, come back full time. Put your DCs in nursery all day every day and keep your management roles. Otherwise you can kiss good bye to your high-flying careers and do what all the other overlooked mums end up doing'. Bitter? Me? Just a wee bit. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts and maybe a bit of perspective! And I'm giving myself a . Is that allowed?

Businesses in the uk don't seem to value part time workers at all.

There should be more jobs available part time, I don't know anyone who job shares. That could be a great solution for so many.

And I think we should also say to young women "choose someone who will co parent with you"

I think when Gen Y get older they won't tolerate it in organisations and will expect and be given more flexibility.

Having read everyone's post, here's how I see it. Before I had DS I had a career. I thought I could return to work pt, take up where I left off, and continue to receive the same respect and at least some job prospects (more hours in the future etc). The reality is that the pt workers are perceived as the lowest of the low. I asked to work an extra day but was told that they couldn't (at the time) but they wouldn't employ anyone else until I had my extra day. Two people have since been employed and they sort of shrugged and said it fitted the company better. So, young women need to know that they CAN'T have it all. If they return to their careers pt, they won't have careers. They'll have jobs, with a very low glass ceiling and no prospects. I wish I'd know that 6 years ago. I might have considered something else.

I agree with you farewell. I would only question whether you will actually feel you are in a better position as a TA in a school environment (child friendly hours apart). I have a lot of very absorbing hobbies and interests which I can pursue as my time allows. It would take quite a lot for me to do a job to get me out the house although I do volunteer when it works for me.

I think the problem is not that mums get a raw deal at work but that part-timers do, it's just that most part-timers happen to be mums.

I went part-time for health reasons many years before I had DC and it has basically ended any hope of career progression for me, despite the fact that I seem to do about 90% of my full time colleague's workload into my 60% hours

I am also severely restricted if I want to look elsewhere for work as part-time jobs in my profession just don't exist, I have looked and looked but there is only unskilled work at half my current salary

Most employers see part-timers as not really interested in their career.

We can't even begin to have equality until the phrase "working mother" is dropped OR the phrase "working father" becomes as common as "working mother".

This phrase (working mother) is used with the implicit assumption that women are mothers first and wage earners second whereas men are assumed to be wage earners first and parents second. So paid work is orientated towards men.

Yanbu.
I'm going to be looking at part time work after Christmas and having had a recce and a flick through the sort of jobs which will probably be available my heart sinks.
Gutted.
I will have part time hours available not part time capabilities.

I've not got DC yet but one of my colleagues is part time and on a weekly basis I see her doing more than anyone else at her grade - she's actually working significantly above her level despite having less time.

There are new roles available at the moment and she was taken to one side and told that these weren't "part time roles" so she couldn't apply. It's insane - she'd be the best person for the role by a long shot but they're cutting off their nose to spite their face because they have an issue with part timers.

It's definitely going to influence my decision if I have children.

How can businesses help more though?
There are many jobs where job share can be considered and i know lots of women who do this, but they aren't careers.
They are independent stand alone jobs where other people aren't really involved with what they do.
If you have a career and usually paid a higher salary than a job then you are expected to put in more hours and are accountable to others either in a team or dept.
these type of jobs don't always cross over well into pt/ job share as they need continuation from one person.
I don't think you can expect industry to change because you and your partner have children.
It is up to you as a couple to divide your time and work commitments between you.
If you want a career and kids find a man or woman who supports this, make sure your partner is going to treat you as an equal in your partnership.

I agree that the way part time jobs are perceived is a problem. I want to go part time in the future. I'm not worried about it affecting my career because I don't want a more senior role, but in my line of work it is unusual (though not unheard of) to work part time. If I was looking for promotion, going part time would, I imagine, be a hindrance.
Given that a lot of people (principally women) with child care commitments end up working part time, the way part time roles are treated affects them disproportionately.

In an ideal world DH and I would both work part-time, 4 days a week, but it's been hard enough to find one part-time skilled job, let alone two. I have the higher salary at the moment but my job is high stress and includes unsociable hours, whereas DH's is mon-fri 9-5 and relatively stress free.

I do believe that the low status of part-time workers is at least partially responsible for the difference in salary between men and women, as well as the lack of women in senior positions.

I think the problem (in many professional jobs anyway) is the long hours culture.

^^ this

The UK is exceptionally bad for having such long working hours and a culture of 'presenteeism'.

Prospects for mums aren't going to change until this changes.

Other countries (often more successful economies) have a different work culture. Both the men and women get up and say goodbye at 5pm on the dot and no one raises an eyebrow. I've worked in sectors like this but it seems rare in the private sector.

I only if employers want more than 35 hours work they should employ more than one person. This has come up on threads here before but I've never understood why this seems so difficult for employers.

I think the 'continuity' argument is a poor excuse for not accommodating flexible working potato

My profession works 24/7, no one person can cover all those hours by themself - there are many of us all doing the same job to the same standard, we must all be tested and accredited to prove it so that we do have continuity whoever is working. The traditional 37 hour working week doesn't really fit anyway, even with on-call, overtime etc.

My DH fully supports me. It is employers that don't.

A further problem for a full-time working out of the home mother is the "double shift" - still being the default parent, homemaker, cleaner, organiser of social events and kids' lives etc. I think this is why I find working full-time far more stressful than dh, although we have the same job and the same kids.

Yes well that's where wifework comes in

Completely agree Brandy. Even though I am "lucky" in that dh works from home twice a week. He does the school runs and cooks on "his" days but what he doesn't have is the constant background noise of organising childcare in his head. For him it's out of sight out of mind and I end up sorting out holiday clubs grandparents and babysitters. This does take up a certain amount of time, but it takes up a phenomenal amount of "head space" wifework indeed.

Jackie, it's true although I think it is being eroded in other countries as well. I blame the Americans.

I remember when I was a kid my dad was the main breadwinner while my mum was SAH with me till I was 7 and then she went back to work part time. I've got 3yo twins, I brass neck it out of the office first before everyone else and I still work a longer day than my dad did.

I work full time and recently have taken a new, better role. I am actively pursuing a career rather than just a job at the moment.

BUT....my DH is a SAHD. I wouldn't be able to do this if he weren't. I think unless there is a really solid support network then someone will compromise and a lot of the time, it is the mum and her career.

However, I work in a pretty good company that bends over backwards to accommodate parents. I think a lot of it (and I have been guilty of this in the past) is becoming complacent about your position*.

*When I say your, I am referring to women I know in my job - so pretty specific!

I am home four days out of five, I fricking hate it. I am lucky I still have consultancy work for the other day but how long I can keep that going for is anyone's guess.

Not everyone chooses. I got made redundant.

yanbu

but as someone else said men have this shit too. I would always advise people to work full time, get expert level and then you have more freedom to work flexi time/consult

Look I understand why you feel bitter- but you say

because I actually wanted to see my DS a bit every day and have a relationship with him

you dont NOT see your kids when you work FT! and I see my kids every day. in fact i quite enjoy ther rare occasons I travel and have a nice in a nice clean hotel.

I think if women equate working full time with not seeing their kids its not optimal/ideal

if they however equate working FT with being very tired, and having a messy shit house- fine by me

Why on earth did you come back part time? Men and women have known for years the secret for a happy balanced life and that is not becoming the home dogsbody who doesn't have the career and has to fit around children. only a muggins would do that! I've no career problems and earn a lot and surprise surprise I've worked full time for 30 years. It rocks. It has the added benefit that I've avoid all those dull hours of cleaning up child sick at home.

Many men and women both work full time see their children - it's called a balanced and equal life and I recommend it.

Agree with all these sensible posters and with you OP.

We risk thinking about work as though it's governed by natural laws. Senior managers "have to" be there all the time.
Schools "have to" run from around 9 to around 3 with x weeks holiday per year.

Office hours "have to" be from 9-5.
Full time work means 5 days per week, Monday to Friday, available in those times, with x days holiday per year.
X numbers of shifts per week constitutes full time.

Yes, there are lots of traditions in work, but there's no way the work has to be done that way. There would be other ways to run an economy which would be just as good.

As some have pointed out, it's fishy that the conventions are designed for people who don't have to think about the needs of a young child. For example spending a few hours of every day with a two year old is a patently more suitable way of parenting than seeing nothing of your child for 5 days and then having 2 days solid together.

if we were designing it from scratch we wouldn't design it this way. Both men and women need to speak up and we also need political alternatives. Wouldn't it be nice, for example, if a party was suggesting changing office hours in their manifesto, instead of all this crap about giving us tiny bits of free childcare here and there?

YANBU

It is still a ridiculously sexist environment in most firms. And in my opinion it is largely men who are the managers/owners who don't look at creative solutions to people working part time.

I have recently moved roles (to another part time job) because a few months ago my employers (board all men) made it clear that they were thinking about making me redundant purely because I wouldn't move from 3.5 days to 5 days a week. Now, they didn't in the end mainly because they couldn't find anyone with my skills and experience who was prepared to work for what they were willing to pay. (as I mentioned to my line manager if I was working full time I could be paid well into 6 figures, and I was getting paid nothing like that). When I resigned after finding another job it put them in a real pickle.

Anyhow, I consulted an excellent employment lawyer who advised that making someone redundant because they won't go full time is a very good ground for indirect sex discrimination. As he pointed out, nowadays there are very few jobs that can't be done part-time, except possibly the Prime Minister, and that there are lots of solutions including job share, variable hours, home working etc etc.

It makes me livid!!

herethere

on the question of wraparound childcare, I employ a student to cover the hours when I don't have aftercare clubs. She is great, happy to do the work which pays much better than bar work or similar, and is pretty flexible.

And I team up with other mums over the holidays to share childcare.

There is tonnes of discrimination against women in the work place. When I took 6 months maternity leave from my job to have my first child I was punished on my return with being sent all over the country meaning 5.00a.m starts. The only way I managed was because my mother moved in with us to do the childcare. An option available to very few. After 6 weeks I spoke to my superiors whose response was along the lines of "you have done 6 weeks of punishment for having a child so we will stop sending you every where now". I was passed over for the best jobs at work and had £7,000 allocated to a male staff member when it was due to come to me. I had my second child quickly after and then left. In my current job I again work FT but set out from the beginning I had to leave on time and if extra work was needed I would do it from home. I could earn more somewhere else but I stay where I am as I have a senior position, have been promoted and the company is family friendly and respects women. I consider myself to be very lucky and am aware jobs like mine are very hard to find. As a PP said, no one asks the father if he feels guilty returning to work, or how he copes being away from his children. Attitudes need to change to working parents and women need support to keep their careers. I certainly don't want my children growing up thinking once you have children your career is over. OP I have every sympathy for you.