Scottish identity

[chocoluvva]

Do you feel you have one?

If you're not Scottish living in Scotland, do you think there is a Scottish identity?

I am very strongly Scottish, and I have lived in London for the last 13 and a half years. I am raising my half English children with a strong awareness of their Scottish side, probably more so as they live in London. My DH is nowhere near as vocal about any pride in being English (I'm not certain that there is the same feeling of Englishness as there is for Scottishness, maybe is more of a regional thing like Yorkshireness!).

For centuries, Scots have been proud of their Scottishness, wherever in the world they ended up, they were the core of the British Empire, as statisically more Scots ended up around the world spreading the word of the British Empire (for better or for worse). Britain wouldn't be Britain without the Scots involvement.

For what it's worth, there are plenty of friendly people around the country. The most friendly street I have ever lived on is my current road.

Mostly seems to be the labour party going on about being patriotic at the minute though.
m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/patriotic-scots-must-back-labour-gordon-brown-1-3754235

Last time I was in London a lady asked my DD and me if she could give us directions. (I don't think she was a pickpocket)

Are English people wary of being openly proud of being English because they feel that it would be seen as nationalistic, with all the negative connotations of nationalism I wonder. I don't know the answer to that question btw.

fannyfifer

Good! The snp doesn't have a monopoly on wanting what's best for Scotland. The snp only want what's best for Scotland - the ruk can get stuffed it would appear. I believe this is an unethical view.

Good Fifer - about time the other parties started reclaiming the notion of Scottishness from the SNP.

OP asked how we felt 'Scottish'. Those of us who voted Yes went out of our way to say that our vote was nothing to do with how Scottish we felt, yet now No voters are telling us that they are somehow inextricably linked!

I don't actually think the friendliness, openness/chattiness is a universal Scottish trait - I think of it as more west coast. I grew up in a very insular place, where you were called an 'incomer' if you hadn't been born there, and a 'white settler' if you were English. When I went to high school in the nearby town I was bullied for sounding 'posh/English'. I was born and grew up in Scotland - I just don't have a broad Scottish accent and I can't help that. I moved to Edinburgh for university and ended up staying here, and I don't notice the chatty friendliness other people describe, although my sister who went to Glasgow says it was like that there. I actually find the area in the north of England where my sister lives now more open and chatty than where I live in Scotland.

Socialism - we are one of the areas of the UK that tends not to vote Tory (well not in recent decades anyway). But I think that is shared with other areas that were industrial and suffered under the shift away from that, and of course under Thatcher in the 80s. I don't think we are overwhelmingly more socialist than other areas of the UK, and as others have said the social attitudes surveys tend to show very similar responses to the rest of the UK.

Until last year I'd never really thought much about my national identity. Now, however I definitely feel more British than Scottish. I did feel quite alienated from my Scottishness during the referendum. I find it hard however to point to specific Scottish/British traits - there's been so much migration (both immigration and emigration) over the years/centuries that it is hard to point to something and say 'that is because you are Scottish'.

For those above talking about couples during the referendum, people might remember that my husband and I were on opposite sides. It has damaged our relationship, but I think it is more that we talked about things we hadn't talked about before, we realised how far we had drifted on some things etc. For example, I never intended to live where I do now all my life, and had been clear about that. When the very real possibility of moving with my job came up, he made it clear that he doesn't see himself living anywhere else (for someone who claims to be so open-minded, I find it bizarre that he wants to live and die in the place he was born and never consider living anywhere else, but that's up to him). I honestly don't know if we have a long-term future, but I don't blame that on the referendum - the referendum was just the catalyst that showed us how much we have changed as people over the years and that the way we want our lives to be has grown quite far apart. We just might not have realised it yet if we hadn't (eventually) had the conversations we did last year.

Absolutely I am telling you that - based on my experiences of being a No voter and having my nationality and loyalty called into question (as many of us did). To dismiss that and to say that national identity and the referendum are 2 separate discussions is to dismiss the experiences and feelings of many of your fellow Scots.

Well FWIW one of the main reasons I voted Yes was that I felt that the Scottish people were being ignored by Westminster and didn't see that improving any time soon. We have voted for left-leaning parties for decades, and there is a grand total of one Tory MP north of the border, yet this has never made any difference in who resides in government. The fact that what we vote for has absolutely no impact on this means that Westminster parties have absolutely no reason to care about what we want or need - if it doesn't matter that we vote against them why would they waste their time? I know you could say that for many areas in the UK, especially norther counties of England, but we were given the chance to take charge of our own country and that's why I grasped it. I would also support devolution of powers or proportional representation within England (and Wales/NI) too, FWIW.

Forgot to mention the sectarian angle people were discussing above. I never encountered this growing up, and the first time I really saw it was a march in Edinburgh. I vaguely knew about the Celtic/Rangers rivalry growing up, but hadn't realised the extent of sectarianism in some areas.

To a lesser extent, some people in Edinburgh seem almost tribal about their football teams. I wonder if that is the same in all areas where you have two major teams? I have virtually zero interest in football so it all goes over my head.

One thing I do remember is someone saying that in Edinburgh people ask you what school you went to so they know what class you are, and in Glasgow people ask you what school you went to so they know what religion you are. I went to a state school in Perthshire, I have no idea what people make of that

I remember moving down from Aberdeenshire many years ago (having moved up there from Kent), watching what I thought was a brass band marching down Princes St and thinking it was odd because there was a heavy police presence

DH thought the same thing when he first saw one, "oh look a pipe band, but why are there no bagpipes?"

"It's an orange march DH, were the sashes and banners of king billy not a giveaway"

See, I had absolutely no idea who King Billy was or what the orange sashes were...didn't really feature in our history lessons to a great extent . I still think of orchestras when people I work beside in Lanarkshire tell me their family members play the flute or the drums...

I only heard about King Billy by reading those Kevin and Sadie books set in Belfast.

I did get taught lots of Scottish history at school, but now that I know more about British history the 1715 and 1745 coverage that I got was very distinctly all about the Scottishness, whereas there's an awful lot more to understand about British history and church history in there.

And to complicate the yes voter = strong Scottish identity theme, I know quite a lot of English people that voted yes.

chirurii If posters had explained their sense of having a Scottish identity in terms significantly different to rUK I'd have more sympathy for their wanting independence/voting snp.

And if posters from outside Scotland can explain what (if anything) makes the Scottish population Scottish that would be very interesting as they have something to compare any concepts of scottishness with.

I do think the snp has managed to increase feelings of scottishness and I do think part of their motivation comes from (historical) feelings of being the uk underdogs and wanting to redress the balance/or get revenge possibly.

So do I OOAOML. This gives weight to my view that a desire for indy is not about Scottish identity.

Just remembered, I'm on a medieval history discussion group which has quite a lot of Americans on it, and some of them seem to have completely bizarre notions of Scottish identity. On one thread (that I think got pulled because it got very modern-political) someone who had never been to Scotland asserted that the Scottish people are wonderful, with a mystical connection to our beautiful land. Now, I will admit there are some beautiful parts of Scotland (just like other countries) and there are some wonderful people (just like other countries) but she was so into this that I wouldn't be surprised if she thought we were all tripping about the glens, auburn hair blowing in the gentle breeze, having mystical thoughts. I live in a tenement flat in a not very nice area of a city.

AmberLav:

"For centuries, Scots have been proud of their Scottishness, wherever in the world they ended up, they were the core of the British Empire, as statisically more Scots ended up around the world spreading the word of the British Empire (for better or for worse). Britain wouldn't be Britain without the Scots involvement"

Now, that's a thing I have found odd. Whenever I have travelled and said I was English I have often had a less than great reaction from people of former colonial countries. When I have said I was 'from Scotland' (ie - 'where have you come from?' - 'from Scotland') I have had a much better reaction.

This is in former Colonial countries, mostly.

Now that is weird as Scots were also involved in Empire building (and asset stripping of said countries, often as not) just as the English were, were they not?

Strange!

DrWhooves - I remember coming to Edinburgh to live as a 23 year old in the early 1990s. Having grown up Kent/London and being old enough to remember IRA bomb scares etc when I went to the Castle as a good tourist must I automatically opened my bag for the uniformed soldier to peer into as I passed through the entrance at the far side of the esplanade.

He gave me this brilliant sideways squint and said, drily: 'you'll be from London, then, lassie'.

chiruri - I think that one of the reasons some English people might vote SNP (which is plain nonsense really!) is because lots of English people (well, non wealthy Londoners really) also feel alienated and ignored by Westminster. IMO, if SNP do well, in the GA, Cameron has only himself to blame.

And I would be one of the last to defend him from the wrath of the Scottish voters; snp or otherwise. Just saying!

I think that the fact of the language being called 'English' and of Scotland being so small compared to England makes 'English' synonymous with British in the minds of many people.

I bet lots of NZers get fed up of being asked if they're Australian.

Or from the wrath of any other voters.

IMO the only justification for moving away from rUK is having a significantly distinct identity.

I disagree. It's also a political thing on whether you think power is better centralised or devolved. I think a lot of Scots ( and people outside London in general) think that more powers should be devolved. This wasn't on offer, hence the referendum.

If there was massive devolution throughout the UK, that I think would kill off the appetite for independence.

Haven't read the full thread so apologies if I'm just rehashing what's gone before. I'm scottish and have lived in Scotland my whole life. While I've never been overly patriotic I was always quietly proud (if you can be proud of an accident of birth) of being Scottish. But last year's referendum has actually left me with a more negative feeling about being scottish. I was ashamed of the attitudes & behaviour of so many of my countrymen and women and think the referendum have definitely left us with a divided country that I'm ambivalent about now.

My point was that actually the SNP as a whole doesn't go on about being patriotic Scots.

I take your point - It'sAll - and there are plenty of examples of small nation states.

The way I see it, is that mainland Britain and its surrounding islands are a natural unit for political governance - there's no geographical/natural boundary between Scotland and England, same language, same mixture of religions and ethnicities, much more in common than different from each other and now so intertwined that to dismantle the unit would be a retrograde step.

It's great that we've co-operated peacefully for over three hundred years and for a long time after our act of union, other small nation states were unifying; Germany and Italy to name two.

Whatever the historical rights and wrongs of Scotland within UK IMO we should put our grievances behind us and work together.

When posters claim that 'scotland' doesn't vote tory but it gets a tory government I think - yes, but it doesn't get a libdem government either, usually (hollow laugh). I don't like it when yes voters claim that Scotland votes this way or that way or thinks this or that.

iHave you make a good point. All things scottish do not equal 'good' & it's quite a feat for scots in general to have escaped the ire of those reflecting on some of the less savoury aspects of the scottish contribution to colonialism. I can't quote specifics (cos I can't fully remember!) but the 1st settlers in NZ, who were scottish, did not treat the indigenous population well at all. It's been a while since I toured some of the historical places in NZ but my recollection is the Scottish settlers in NZ were pretty barbaric in their treatment of the indigenous people. Then you have the founders of the Ku Klux Klan. There's a contribution to the world not to be proud of!

What do you mean about the Ku Klux Klan? There have been several iterations of the Klan in the US, but they were all founded by Americans. Some participants may have been of Scottish descent but that was not a material factor in the organizing of the KKK. Some iconography has Scottish references (the fiery cross, for example), but the KKK, sadly, was and is American.