Scottish identity

[chocoluvva]

Do you feel you have one?

If you're not Scottish living in Scotland, do you think there is a Scottish identity?

I am a Fifer who has lived in various regions around the country and have settled back in Fife again. The only place I have encountered any sectarianism is in Lanarkshire - and that wasn't particularly severe.

I consider myself Scottish, have never felt British. I've lived abroad, have many friends of different nationalities and view them in the same light as English/Welsh/Irish friends/family. We have a lot in common, but also a distinct national identity. Our politics is different, and I would like to see this reflected more. I voted 'yes' but am certainly not anti - English. I would also like to see English regions have more autonomy.

What is the distinct national identity Freckle?

Ooh that looks like it could be meant aggressively - the dark print!

Can you put your finger on the distinctiveness? Is what I meant.

Dumpylump - didn't say CforE was 'against the English* but it IS insular and parochial in it's leanings and it is also very woolly and badly assessed as a Curriculum.

this means, in the wrong hands, it can be used this way.

Can you imagine a Scottish child with dyslexia, or a Polish child, or a Nigerian child, being told, at the highest level: 'oh, it's your accent, you speak like your parents - that's your problem'???

iHAVE that's appalling and pure bigotry! How common is this attitude? I've certainly never seen it, but I went to a 'posh school' with lots of English-sounding kids so it's not really the same. My DH and his sibling sound English as his parents are from England (one from Durham, one from London) and went to a state school, albeit in a fairly affluent area. I don't think he's ever had any issues with people commenting on his accent. And bollocks to that pish about English accents making it harder - DH and his siblings are incredibly high achieving, with two medical doctors and one PhD between them!

An even older and possibly Glaswegian phrase is 'His mither used to wash to me' finnbarrcar, and that was as dismissive as you can get when used as a put-down to someone who was busy talking about an acquaintance with the rich or famous.

Choco, I'm not quite sure what you are aiming for here but there's nothing unique about Scottish identity , or any other kind of identity no matter where you happen to live or come from. I think identity is a complex notion & you'll rarely get identical experiences regarding that as its a sense, a feeling, that is particular to the person/individual and their influences/experiences. There may be a collective narrative in certain groups but in terms of what it is that gives the scots or those who live here a sense of identity, that will vary throughout the various regions & differ further between those who were born here, those who have moved here & those who have moved away.

I guess from my perspective it's about the feelings of security, of some sense of knowing what to expect from your surroundings & knowing when that shifts to the point you no longer feel that sense of security/belonging. The limits for that are at the border for me & that puts me in the scottish 1st, british 2nd camp. I honestly can't explain why that is, but I do think that 'Britishness' as a concept is just way too diverse/multi-layered because it's too big for me to get to grips with. I have relatives in Lincoln & one is particularly invested in the history of that region, but listening to him illustrates just how different that part of the country is to where I grew up. It's too far away for me to have any sense of connection to, even though I have close family there. So I guess distance plays its part & the border is a more easily digestible boundary for my sense of belonging than the UK as a whole. That doesn't equate to me feeling negatively about anything/anyone beyond the scottish border, it's just a line drawn historically that means I have an easy point of reference as to where I belong.

Reading the comments of those who had a negative experience during the referendum debates, that feeling of belonging, of being part of this place has shifted slightly, and not in a good way. Whether that's enough to warrant moving on, or to simply leave a sense of uneasiness or being unsettled, only those affected can say. I find that sad & wish it wasn't so, because it's not pleasant to suddenly feel uneasy in your surroundings no matter what the reason. But I do hope that in time things settle down for everyone, no matter how the feel.

My experience of the referendum was a positive one, mainly because I was always interested in politics & the re-engagement of a political process excited me & intrigued me & no matter where the positive/negative comments came from, I can dismiss the sting behind them because I see engagement in the political process as a very good thing. Democracy of late has had a feeling of just going through the motions (and I place the blame for that squarely on blair & his spin politics - something i loathe with a passion) but when people suddenly feel as though their vote has meaning & is worth using, that gives our democracy some legitimacy again. And that's a great thing IMO.

I've no idea if that in any way answers your question or if I've just rambled a load of nonsense but I tend to think that identity is something that varies from person to person & Scottish identity is only unique to those who have a strong connection with this small part of the world in some shape or form. Some don't see the Scottish border as the limit to their identity & that's absolutely fine. I do, in terms of how I view my identity only, & I don't think that makes me small minded, or parochial or any of the other negative connotations bandied about.

Unfortunately Tension - the fact that another referendum has not been ruled out for that infamous generation means that many of us who voted No don't feel as if it's going to settle down any time soon.

It's interesting that there is a notion that there is such a thing as 'Scottish'. Having lived and worked in many parts of Scotland I think there are far too many differences across the country to lump us under one Scottish heading.

chiuri - it is not uncommon where I am. In my area the standard of state school education is incredibly patchy and there is almost no safety net whatsoever for standards.

My real concern is that this small minded bigoted approach seems to carry on right to the top.

The SfL' teacher' who said it was an old school bigot.
But the Head smirked (also a bigot, I have to say...)
Then the Head of Schools not only failed to distance from it but actually confirmed it as a reasonable comment.
I have spoken to an MSP and a Scottish Education lawyer.
Both of them gave a wry chuckle, initially.
When I bridled and pointed out that the child either has a learning difficulty or is being very badly taught, as for example, recent spelling homework has included words such as: 'me' (child will be 11 soon)
and there is no adequate effort being made to assess the learning difficulty Qu then there is a somewhat grudging acceptance that the comment was 'a wee bit out of order'.
When I told them some of the other issues we have had (major and minor) they sat up a lot straighter, I have to say.
There is a 'tolerance' of racism like there was of sexism in the 1970's - it's all a 'oh, don't be so sensitive, cant you take a joke' kind of stuff.

But it isn't a joke to tell a child they cant read and write as well as their peers 'because they speak with an English accent like their parents'.
Or that they would have had to fight their parents who would have been 'on the wrong side' in a war.

It is racist, pure and simple.

This is right through Scottish society, in places.

I am not suggesting that there are not some real problems in English education, or that there are not plenty of decent Scots folks,

but the 'blame it on the English' lazy approach is entrenched and is in danger of being given formal validation via the recent 'once in a lifetime' (yeah, right!) IndyRef and by the CforE system too.

Not rambling at all! Thank you for your post. Please note that I have not accused anyone on this thread of being 'small minded' or 'parochial.'

However, I take from your post that from a philosophical or psychological pov anyone strongly identifying themselves as any nationality could be said to be 'strongly connected' to their country, but not really anything else? This is kind of making the point I was getting at - that there aren't any/many strong or significant cultural, ethical or religious differences between Scotland and rUK. My hunch that the Scottish identity/collective feelings of being strongly Scottish often stated as one of the reasons for Scottish independence doesn't hold up as a justification for becoming independent. That's why I keep asking what makes Scottish people (or anyone living in scotland) Scottish.

Also because I don't have much to go on, (I did live in England for three years ) It's interesting to get the views of posters who have lived in other countries. How can we know what makes us us if we don't know about anyone else IYSWIM?

English born, parents from Leeds, Grandad from Ayrshire - always identified as Scottish from an early age although we lived in Yorkshire.

Lived here for 28 years. Feel absolutely at home.

Part of the 'scottish identity' seems to be about equality - a sense that no one is better than anyone else. It's a great 'leveller'. I think that that's why it's so easy to talk to anyone and everyone.

The area I live in has recently experienced an influx of English people and is undergoing great change. There aren't enough of the old people, whose values I cherished, left and an English mentality is developing. I don't like it. I wish it wasn't happening, as it makes me sad.

My step nieces live near Ipswich and the eldest is currently doing a project on the UK at primary school - so have to design posters for each of the 4 countries of the UK. SIL got loads of stuff from Scotland and DN made a fantastic poster that she then presented at assembly (and won the prize for best poster). It suddenly dawned on me that in all the years mine have been at school under CforE they none of their projects have focussed on the rUK. Plenty of Scottish-centric stuff, but nothing looking at the UK as a whole. Quite sad really - although it may just have been the 2 primaries and 1 High School that they attend.

Choco, I think we are talking at cross purposes here. I answered the question of identity. I didn't answer the question of identity in terms of the referendum or as a reason to justify independence. I think you are conflating 2 separate things & trying to think through an argument to justify your own opinion of what you think Scottish identity is for some people. And I think that's as much of a flawed argument as it is anyone thinking identifying as Scottish is in and of itself the only reason to justify independence.

Being or feeling scottish does not equate to wanting independence. Wanting or thinking scotland should be an independent country is far more complex that just being about identity. In my opinion.

chocoluvva A lot of pps have probably said the same things but I will list things I miss not living in Scotland. (Sorry, badly worded)
Less evidence of class system
RP not the accent of professional people
People chat to you even when they're not paid to do so
People taking you to your destination when you're a lost pedestrian
Generosity e.g. people give presents to bride and groom even though they are not asked to the wedding
Dialect words and phrases
The sense of humour
People meaning it when they say, "We must meet up sometime."
The sound of bagpipes (truly)

There are things I don't miss though.

I agree that wanting independence for Scotland is more complex than just feeling uniquely Scottish and therefore wanting to be independent.

But IMO the only thing that could justify independence (after such a long time of being part of UK) is being significantly different from rUK. That's why I was asking what makes people who strongly identify as Scottish feel Scottish.

The fact that there doesn't seem to be a strong Scottish identity except in terms of wanting to be recognised as independent from rUK strengthens my view that the idea of being Scottish is bolstered by the historical underdog view and disaffection with 'The Establishment'.

It certainly should be more complex than that - but it was interesting that some of the more vociferous voices on the Yes side chose to focus on national identity with those voting No being accused of treachery and of being traitors, as if that was one of the worst forms of insults (that and being a Tory..). Obviously there were plenty of moderate Yes voters not sinking to this level - but what we do have in Scotland is a hard core (and a not insignificant one) using national identity for political gain and as a way of publicly demonstrating your Scottishness. Quite how we move away from that I'm not sure - I think that promotion of inclusiveness needs to come from the top at Holyrood, and I simply don't see it.

derxa - do you think the things you listed are sufficient reason to break up the UK?

I think this election will be quite interesting in determining if Scotland/rUK shares certain values. The latest poll when extrapolated suggests the SNP could win 54/56 seats.

That is utterly insane! There is obviously something happening in Scotland at the moment, that is more than just a few Indy extremists. There seems to.be some massive shift of opinion, but it seems a bit unclear why.

chocco no one has said that a feeling of Scottishness is enough justification to move away from rUK; in fact many people have stated the complete opposite. Did you start this topic to discuss feeling of Scottish identity, or to discuss the referendum? As these are very different discussions.

Even if all the Scottish seats become snp that can only tell us so much.... The majority of votes is unlikely to be for the snp. And some of the snp vote is an anti-establishment protest vote.

Iirc the latest social survey poll (or whatever it's called) demonstrated that there is actually very little difference in values across the UK - so I think that what this election will show is that the 45% who voted Yes will continue to vote that way, others will vote to protest against Tory cuts, others will vote because they feel that the SNP will best represent Scotland at Westminster and so on...there is no one simple reason for the shift of opinion - which is probably why across the UK as a whole the voting outcome is so uncertain.

As these are very different discussions.

Sadly they aren't. As I've said (as have others) the question of national identity was certainly one of the major issues in the Indy debate at ground level - and one of the biggest insults hurled across to the No voters. Perhaps in time the 2 will become separate again, but it's all too recent to claim that they are very different discussions.

IMO the only justification for moving away from rUK is having a significantly distinct identity. That's why I was asking. And not limiting it to posters who have the option of voting snp.

FWIW I'm Scottish, but not from the central belt. I sometimes wonder if my own 'issues' with the frequent portrayal of central-belt and sometimes specifically Glasgow/west coast as 'scottish' colour my views. I sort of view myself as an 'ethnic minority' Scottish person - Gaelic was never spoken in my original home area, there isn't a strong tradition of socialism, people aren't as 'gobby' (for want of a better word), Scottish poets just as good as Burns are remembered.....

choco Certainly not on their own. The things I described are based on emotional yearnings. A break up of the UK would have to be based on cold hard economic sense and I am not knowledgeable enough in that area to even begin to make arguments. History has taught us that economically we are better together and who could forget the Darien Scheme.However a lot of people voting SNP may be voting using their hearts rather than their heads. The referendum vote was 'No' because people couldn't understand where the money would come from, I'm guessing. I don't have a vote in Scotland so don't know. DH (Scottish and an ex-accountant) says No to independence and No to coming out of the EU. Anyway although there are all sorts of being Scottish, but there is a Scottish identity and I doubt very much whether any Scot would really deny being Scottish.
(Lots of unfocused rambling here)