Scottish identity

[chocoluvva]

Do you feel you have one?

If you're not Scottish living in Scotland, do you think there is a Scottish identity?

Full - that school is the catchment one for my DCs. Not sure that they'll be going there!
I'm Scottish and live in Scotland. I voted yes, but many of my friends voted no. I would like to think that a lot of Scottish identity is bound up in social mobility - if you have the ability you can be a success, but I'm not sure that's true anymore.

Chandler - come to Lanarkshire if you haven't experienced sectarianism. I work through there and often drive through towns and villages - the orange traffic lights smashed, red white and blue painted on the kerbstones, tricolours or union jacks flying...it's fascinating

There's a school like this in Edinburgh, Forresters and Saint Augustines. Sectarianism is alive and well unfortunately, just go through the west on 12th July if you want to see ugly people at their peak of ugliness

Trying It is shocking. Shameful as it is I can tell whether someone is Catholic or Protestant by the way they pronounce 'fair' and 'hair'.
I had scarcely met a Catholic person till I went to university. Having said that, two brothers from a Catholic family at my High School had no probs at all and one was School Captain.

Oh, I've certainly heard of certain colours of traffic lights being smashed, about having the choose the colour of clothes you wear carefully, etc. But that doesn't happen across the whole of Scotland. Although I'm pretty sure that the school being referred to upthread is in Dalkeith, just south of Edinburgh.

finn I'm pretty sure that Forresters and St. Augustines are just like that due to the time they were built. There is no proper divide anymore and I'm pretty sure certain classes are done together etc. The only actual separation is for religious activities such as church services. I had a lot of friends go to both schools.

No, it doesn't happen across Scotland, you're right. I remember moving down from Aberdeenshire many years ago (having moved up there from Kent), watching what I thought was a brass band marching down Princes St and thinking it was odd because there was a heavy police presence. It was only when my flatmates explained the whole Protestant/Catholic thing that it made sense.

I'm pretty sure it's Dalkeith too. My friend's DD went there - it sounds very familiar.

Scottish living in London. I'm proudly Scottish, but the referendum was a low point. I never had to justify my identification as a proud Scot but ultimately a "no" camp-er before and being made to feel I was a traitor or not a true Scot for feeling that way was awful (extrapolating that reaction gave me a taste of how the seeds of civil war can be planted - passions ran high)

Despite being brought up in Lanarkshire I think I managed to be sheltered from all the sectarianism until I went to uni. It was there that I first saw an Orange Walk, and through work encountered sectarian violence and bigotry. It is disgusting but does seem to be confined to only certain areas of the Central Belt (or am I being naive?)
Funnily enough now a huge percentage of my friends are Catholic, despite me being brought up loosely Protestant and identifying as atheist. I've been to more Catholic weddings in the past few years than I can count!

It's Dalkeith and st Davids

The football element of sectarianism has been fairly diluted of late, since the 2 protagonists have been separated. Not disappeared altogether but certainly a lot less noticeable. I live in the heart of one area that was always bedlam after every old firm game & the peace since that slid away due to one half going bust has been bliss. I'm dreading a revival if rangers get back into the same division as Celtic. You realise just how great life can be when you don't have that as a constant threat hanging over the area you live in. I'm sure plenty a&e depts are feeling the same sense of dread.

Re the OP & scottish identity - weirdly enough I was contemplating this only the other day. The sense of identity, of belonging, for me comes from just knowing this place & the sense of familiarity wherever I am. That feeling you get when you've been away awhile & you then get that release when you set foot back on scottish soil & feel at home again. I can't express it beyond that. It's no different to how other people feel about where they come from I guess, so not anything unique to being scottish. But just feeling you belong & feeling content to live here for all the many reasons listed is what makes me identify with scotland & being scottish.

My DD's dad is English & he heavily identifies as English but loves living here too. DD has a keen sense of being part English because her dad does promote that side of her background, so it's interesting to see how she weighs up/compares the 2 identities she has from her parentage. Her dad voted yes, and she would have voted no if she had a vote

Sectarianism is a problem in certain communities but it would be wrong to imply that it's a problem for the whole country.

It very much depends where you live. I've lived in four different towns in Scotland (including Glasgow) and not had any bad experiences other than the necessity to avoid the centre of Glasgow mid July.

I appreciate that I've been fortunate in this but it is perfectly possible to live in Scotland without Sectarianism being a feature of daily life.

Apart from all that, it's my place, where my heart feels happy. I've lived in other countries but I'm not truly at peace unless I'm home.

Absolutely this.

It seems that some/many posters identify as Scottish in the sense of taking pride in their Scottish heritage and/or community.

Some traits have been commonly identified as Scottish, friendliness, chattiness, and being down to earth - though dourness and aggressiveness are sometimes mentioned as being Scottish too.

The value most often cited as being Scottish (or more common among the Scottish population) is socialism.

(So far) no religious beliefs identified as particularly Scottish (obviously Scotland has the Church of Scotland) or parenting styles, culture or (major) ethics (though socialism obviously implies a set of ethical principles).

IMO some of the feeling of identifying as Scottish comes from being much less populous than England and the feeling of being overlooked or forgotten about. Things like 'the north' being used as a term for 'the north of England'. Historical prejudices against accents not from SE of England. The arrogance of pompous 'old boys' getting more than their fair share of media time. Londoners giving the impression that they think people who don't live in big cities, particularly London itself are 'backward' just because the transport and technology infrastructure is less advanced, there are fewer diverse consumer options and national cultural/academic/scientific repositories aren't on their doorstep.

And from the economic legacy of the demise of heavy industry in many parts of Scotland - often considered to be brought about by a tory government (Thatcher) - and a feeling that governments tend to favour the financial sector, with a resulting disadvantage for the Scottish economy.

In short, that Scotland is perceived as the underdog. People tend to root for the underdog.

Presumably younger people have experienced this to a lesser extent (with the development of information technology and 24/7 media enabling the voices of more people to be noticed/heard). Though the old boy network is still in evidence. Is the feeling among young people of being Scottish rather than british (or of strongly identifying as Scottish) mostly a protest against perceived injustices against Scotland?

I live in the Highlands and really have no experience of sectarianism at all, I do think it's an issue mainly confined to further south in Scotland.
I identify as Scottish first and British second, and I'm very happy to be Scottish....I prefer the education system, it seems much more straightforward and fairer somehow than the rest of the UK. Same goes for our legal system - e.g. Put an offer in on a house, it's accepted, no gazumping, job done!
I don't feel very strongly about tartan, or shortbread - although I do think my two ds's looked fantastic in their kilts at my sisters wedding.
I'm also much happier to say I'm Scottish when I go abroad, than I would be to say English, and I feel we get a better reception from other nationalities. There seems to be a general prejudice against England, that Scotland doesn't get.

massive x-posting. Slow typing.

choco Actually I don't think I agree at all. My 'Scottish-ness' is not connected to any anti-Britishness. It's not a negative feeling, it's a positive one.

It's an independent sense of identity.

I don't have any negative thoughts about England. I have lots of lovely, lovely English friends and relatives. There are many beautiful and interesting places in England I enjoy visiting. (Wales and Ireland too).

I'm working abroad Dumpy and I haven't encountered a sense I prejudice against the English at all. Quite the opposite - being British automatically earns you respect and there seems to be more favourable treatment for those coming from richer, more powerful countries than smaller, weaker ones. This was a surprise to me.

E.g. A Belgian friend sees the British as being polite and well mannered. A Dutch friend admires the British standards of organisation and military might. Unfortunately also a common comment seems to be that the British are perceived as being overweight.

I agree Eigg, my sense of scottish identity is positive too, and not linked to negativity towards England/English people. It's about where I feel at home most, not about who other think riles me most!

I was born in England to English parents but have lived in Scotland for 23 years, more than half my life.

I have experienced a fair amount of anti-English feeling over that time.

The first flat I tried to buy, the owners tried to pull out of the sale when they discovered I was 'a wee English lassie'. They were educated middle class people. The sale went through but it was unpleasant, to say the least.

I dated an Advocate very briefly whose joy when he gave a English Barrister a 'right good kicking' was something to see. I later discovered he sought out English sex workers to use.

Then later I experienced Orange Marches (appreciate this is somewhat more complicated than basic anti English feeling...). This was in East Lothian and it was properly horrible, with small babies being smeared Orange and drunk men and women screaming abuse.

My child is at a Scottish Primary. There are dyslexia type issues. We were told by a SfLT that it was because child 'has a right English accent, just like YOU'. The Head snorted with laughter. We took a complaint all the way to the Head of Schools, who also agreed that 'English accents can affect learning'.

Both my children identify as Scottish.
One was told, whilst doing Flodden as a topic: 'your parents would have been on the wrong side and you would have had to fight them'.
Our experience of the CforE is that it is poorly constructed, narrow, parochial / racist and no questioning of it is allowed as that is: 'unScottish'.

A bit like the SNP / Indy campaign.
There are still 'Yes' signs up in our village, but fortunately the teaching staff who wore 'yes' badges have now taken them off.
I am aware of businesses who were threatened, locally, if they publicised their 'No' sympathies and lots of individuals too.

It is very sad as I believe, historically, Scottish people DO have a great sense of 'a man's a man, for a' that' and did have a superior state education system.

I'm talking more about typical holiday destinations though TheChandler, I've heard many times from Spanish and Portuguese people that they don't care much for the English tourists. They never say British.

I think my favourite trait I associate with Scotland is that people will help you if you gave a problem, whether that involves completely going out of their way to do so, or stopping to ask if you're all right if you look troubled (or your car has broken down or whatever).

That simply doesn't happen here - most people will ignore you, safe in the thought that "the system" will sort you out - tax is much more socially redistributive here.

Sorry, that poured out, but as you may see it has been a largely negative experience for our family, and I am aware of others like me.

My point is that I don't identify as Scottish but my children certainly do, and one of them is very very proud of it.

I feel uneasy -

mainly about the way certain elements of both their educators and the curriculum are seemingly encouraging them to identify negatively against something ('the English bastards') rather than positively for the good values of tolerance, education, invention, and acceptance which I had hoped for.

I don't think the Curriculum for Excellence is against England - have I missed something?

Eigg and Tension my point was that identifying as Scottish doesn't seem to involve identifying as having much in the way of values/traits/culture that are peculiarly Scottish.

So the question is, why do many Scottish people strongly identify as Scottish (given that we're part of the UK). My theory is that the historical attitudes of the majority population in UK (English residents) towards Scotland have led to a feeling of Scotland being an underdog and this accounts in (large?) part for strong feelings of wanting to be recognised as Scottish.

Perhaps a natural pride in your heritage and/or community is mistaken as constituting a Scottish identity?

I wonder if English mn-etters identify as being English and feel there is an English identity. Or the residents of other countries?

I'm not accusing anyone who strongly identifies as Scottish as having anti-English tendencies.