Scottish identity

[chocoluvva]

Do you feel you have one?

If you're not Scottish living in Scotland, do you think there is a Scottish identity?

*clearly differ, even.
I should go to sleep! Proof-reading is definitely suffering.

Bakewell - Sorry it was a bit garbled. (I don't have a post graduate degree ). I just meant it seems ludicrous that the minority 45% view the majority 55% as traitors.

I am voting Labour because the SNP folk are just too pushy, and aggressive in their tone.
Not the only reason of course, but somebody needs to talk to them about flies, honey, and vinegar.

Charming. I'm genuinely concerned about the nationalist fervor.

Very wise Chir

Trixy I don't think that the referendum was a particularly pleasant experience but then I'm not sure that radical political change ever is.

That said I'm very sorry that Yes voters made you, and others feel so distressed.

Flack flew both ways though. I was largely silent in real life (something I rather regret now) about my intentions to vote Yes, because the majority of my friends, family and colleagues were quite virulently 'no'. I don't enjoy being called stupid any more than no voters enjoyed being called unpatriotic.

Night all.

Storytopper - your qualifications sound almost good enough for you to go to England to find work. Arf.

Hilarious, Alpha.

When the election results start coming in on 8th of May I will raise a glass and think of you.

"Ireland colonised Scotland in the 6th century, hence Gaelic being spoken and Mac names being there etc... So, the Highland Scots have always been very different to the Anglo Saxons in the south. I think that may be why they have a clear sense of identity."

Scotland being colonised by Gaels in the 6th century is now regarded as a foundation myth, I believe. Bede wrote it many hundreds of years later, also some Gaelic dynastic book. Even currently espoused without any evidence, possibly political reasons. From BBC Scotlands history, "Recently archaeologists have challenged this idea. If the Gaels did invade from Ireland then new objects and differing types of building style could be expected to appear. What archaeologists point to is the continuity in building styles of crannogs and forts found in Argyll and Ireland, suggesting the Gaels had lived in Argyll for many centuries before Fergus Mor and shared a common Gaelic culture with Ireland." I read somewhere that there are probably Gaelic speakers as long in the west of Scotland as as in Ireland. The seas were highways. The name of Scotland is of course derived from the Scotti, a term for Gaels.

www.islandguide.co.uk/history/scotti.htm

I think the entire concept of Scottish identity is a difficult thing to get a hold of. Certainly in days gone by with the stifling of Scottish ways of speaking and ways of thinking in schools, together with lack of teaching specifically Scottish history - this made the whole 'Scottish identity' thing go underground, to a certain extent.

Also, one big issue that has been largely ignored in the referendum debate, debacle and aftermath is that there is a sectarian aspect to it that will not go away. It's barely reported (one scant headline on the day after, I think, about Orange thugs causing trouble, and even then it wasn't stated as being that so you wouldn't know that was the issue) and so there's little chance of bringing it up to the surface.

Yes, the continuing sectarianism in Scottish society is something I am not proud of as a Scot. I wonder how all the misty eyed nationalists manage to rationalise that with their concept of the Scots somehow being more 'fair' and 'friendly' than their English neighbours?

Scottish in England for 30 years but still have a strong Scottish identity. In fact I feel my personality has changed over the years. Much less open and less friendly now. Grew up in Scottish farming community and it really is a community. A bit sad about all the referendum fighting.

Just to add. Sectarianism is one reason my DH will never go back.

Cruikshank when did the education system move away from teaching of Scottish history? I was in school in the 80s and I have always thought it would have been quite helpful to have been taught a bit more than Bannockburn, Stirling Bridge, William Wallace, Mary Queen of Scots and John Knox. All our 1st and 2nd World War studies focussed mostly on the experiences of the Scots too, as did anything we did on British colonialism. I didn't take history beyond 2nd year high school though, so maybe the exam syllabus was a bit less Scotland- centric? I could really have done with learning about British Kings after the Unio, Nelsn, Wellington and stuff like the Russian Revolution, have always felt my historical education was far too inward-looking.

Returning to the OP's question, I am from a very long line of Scots who never left their small corner of the Central belt until I bucked the trend by going to University in England and I have not lived there since I was 18 ( I am now 41). I am married to an Englishman.

However I am fiercely proud of my very strong accent and get very defensive if accused of having lost it and the things I treasure about the Scottish identity are the very very dry and sarcastic sense of humour, the ability to make fun of ourselves, the fondness for a drink, the general resilience and willingness just to get on with things, the strong sense of what is value for money and the openness- I was always caught by surprise after spending time in London when shop assistants in my home town would chat away to me at the checkout. I also really like bagpipes and had a small pipe band at my wedding.

On the downside I echo what posters above have said about sectarianism, it is truly abhorrent and a source of great shame to me.

A bit sad about all the referendum fighting.

I have not seen any of the "fighting" you describe.
I voted yes, OH voted no. We are still friends.

Are you up for a square go, fulltothebrim? (only joking). I probably would have voted yes and my DH a definite no.

I find the sectarianism pretty hard to fathom. But I don't think it's a reason for Scotland not to be independent. There's nothing intrinsic to Scots which means they cannot run their own country - sectarianism is a challenge but many countries have challenges. I grew up in an area of huge racial tension in London . People were killed fir the colour of their skin . But I don't think that the argument was ever made that the English were not capable of running a country. That would not have crossed our minds ever.

A bit sad about all the referendum fighting.

Quite agree. It was very divisive - although I'm sure that many couples managed to put their differences aside for the sake of their marriage

I find the sectarianism pretty hard to fathom.

Why?
It is created and perpetuated by the church.

My kids attend a large state comprehensive school in Scotland. THe campus houses two secondary schools- one Catholic and one non denominational.

High fences divide the school playgrounds. Although the pupils share a dining hall screens divide the room, catholics on one side, non doms on the other. The school office has a large dividing screen down the middle, the school start and end times are staggered so pupils don't have to walk home together to avoid conflict.

These children live in the same area, the same street, often neighbours.

It is horrific to see how divisions like this are created.

I dont think Scottish schools have ever taught that Scotland was an Irish colony and that that should be used as a foundation for ignoring the rest of its history. Any Fresian will tell you that Mac surnames have the same root as their surnames which traditionally end in "ma". Furthermore, many traditional Irish surnames themselves have roots in the Viking invasions, Scots also have a very similar Anglo Saxon, celtic and Norse racial heritage to the English, many northern parts of Scotland were Norse speaking far more recently than Gaelic (Shetland and Orkney were far longer Norse speaking parts of the Danish kingdom than Scotland) and many Gaelicised placenames have a Nordic root (including most island names ending in "ey" or "oy")..

Personally I haven't seen much sectarianism in Scotland - but I've experienced a lot of sexism and cronyism and witnessed a lot of parochialism, insularity and tendency not to self-criticise, but rather to self-congratulate.

full, that's absolutely awful I had no idea that kind of thing went on. Are you in Glasgow? I went to Catholic schools in Glasgow, but you didn't have to be Catholic to go. There were people of various and, presumably, no religions. It just happened that the local Catholic school was the nearest or best. What you describe sounds like a huge step backwards.

Well Chandler. My DH grew up in a small mining village in Lanarkshire. His father was from an Irish Catholic family/mother Highland Protestant.
He suffered a lot of sectarian bullying. He didn't even go to a Catholic school. It scarred him quite deeply.

I think sectarianism is more a west thing.

Derxa - I'm not for one moment suggesting sectarianism doesn't exist - simply pointing out that thankfully I never encountered it.

For me, sexism is something that was a much more depressing noticable trend. And as I'm currently working between two countries where its now noticably much less if an element in my life than it was in Scotland, that's something I tend to pinpoint.

Not rtft so sorry if I repeat anything. A negative Scottish trait is the "I Kent yer faither" syndrome whereby anyone perceived to be getting"above themselves" needs reminding where they came from. Scots are also associated with being dour, chippy and aggressive. I cannot deny I exhibit all of these lovely character flaws...i voted "aye"

Ubik sectarianism and independence are completely different issues, I don't believe anyone was suggesting they were linked. The religious divide is not as politicised as it is in NI.

The Chandler have you never been to Glasgow then? It is impossible not to see sectarianism. It is rife. EVERYONE I know his keenly aware of the religion of everyone they come into contact with and judges them accordingly. Masonic lodges are very popular, it's obviously clear in the football, orange walks are a frequent sight and every town has segregated Catholic and non- catholic schools. At my school people used to throw stones at the Catholic school bus.

agentcooper- this is a school just outside Edinburgh, a newish school campus, a PPI initiative built in 2004. 2500 pupils.