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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Scottish identity

520 replies

chocoluvva · 26/04/2015 18:31

Do you feel you have one?

If you're not Scottish living in Scotland, do you think there is a Scottish identity?

OP posts:
Original poster
chocoluvva · 27/04/2015 22:28

Ok a UK tourist.

Perhaps the items you purchased were on sale at a reduced price and being a canny Scot you snapped up a bargain. Not that you have to justify your purchases to me or anyone else.

I do think that sort of encounter is partly responsible for feeling the need to have independence though.

Rise above it sister.

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ScotsWhaHae · 27/04/2015 22:30

I don't think it's about feeling better than others at all.

I find it hard to quantify the values that I would associate with Scotland and they won't be exclusively Scottish but whilst I struggle to describe it I certainly feel a kinship with Scotland and Scottish people.

Original poster
chocoluvva · 27/04/2015 22:32

A fairer and more just society Itwontletme (but only for friendly, progressive Scottish people)

Not much in the way of positive reasons for voting snp either. Vote green if you want to be more democratic, socialist, green and scrap trident?

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starwarslegoboy · 27/04/2015 22:34

It's not a case of defining Scots as being different as a race/culture, but that politically and I will be careful here, the Scots and rUK were taking different political paths. TBH I think there are many in the North, Wales etc who would take a similar position as the Scots, but the simple fact is that the SNP gave the Scots a way out during the referendum. And it was unsuccessful of course, but now there is an option of influence, which is appealing. And Labour still can't stop following the Tories. It's not complicated really

ScotsWhaHae · 27/04/2015 22:36

You're asking people to open up and explain feelings of identity, which are inevitably quite a personal thing, and then go on mock and ridicule.

If you want a debate go for it but your tone was one of interest and curiosity which has now turned into mocking which is quite unpleasant.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/04/2015 22:37

Bloody hell! Shock That's the second poll today to put the SNP at 50%+

Looks like the majority of (voting) Scots may be voting SNP after all...

Original poster
chocoluvva · 27/04/2015 22:46

But if a feeling of having a Scottish identity is a 'personal thing' then I don't see it as being Scottish.

I think things like ignorant English people insisting that Scottish people can get a vat refund on goods bought in England or refusing to take Scottish notes (which are legal tender, but don't have to be accepted by the vendor - something to do with the way that banknotes are circulated or something) is trivial. Sorry, but I do.

I deliberately didn't mention the snp or indy-ref campaign at the start of the thread as I wanted to see if many posters do feel there's such a thing as a Scottish identity independently of politics.

Apologies for making fun of you for shopping in Harrods.

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Christinayangstwistedsister · 27/04/2015 22:48

I don't think it's trivial...sorry, I don't

SenecaFalls · 27/04/2015 22:50

OP, I think you are reading things into some people's responses (sometimes in a rather mocking way) that I don't think are necessarily there.

Original poster
chocoluvva · 27/04/2015 22:51

I agree with Itwon'tletme that some Scottish people do seem to think that 'the Scottish people' feel morally superior. 'Fairer and more just', wha's like us, canny, outward-looking, tolerant etc; I think the implication is more of those things than the ruk.

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Original poster
chocoluvva · 27/04/2015 22:54

What does it matter if a few ignorant English people don't understand how the UK is structured? They're a tiny majority surely?

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Original poster
chocoluvva · 27/04/2015 22:55

Labour can't stop following the tories - I know what you mean - it's depressing.

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funnyossity · 27/04/2015 22:55

On the cash thing, I used to travel between Scotland and London a bit and found small shops / cafes refusing to accept notes they didn't recognise as they had already been the victims of counterfeit notes. I didn't think they were unreasonable (or ignorant in this case - unlike the VAT situation) as I know it's tough to find you have taken a dodgy note.

M&S did have a policy of accepting Scottish notes though!

Original poster
chocoluvva · 27/04/2015 22:57

Too right I'm 'curious' btw. The snp is phenomenally popular.

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/04/2015 22:58

I think some people think it matters because its not just banknotes. If you watch the news, "north" is Newcastle, cuts in the NHS actually doesn't include Scotland, teacher strikes don't include Scotland etc. Even MNHQ has been guilty in the past, talking about school applications across the UK.

There is a general assumption amongst many people that Scotland is part of England, there is often no knowledge at all of the different legal,education etc systems.

morage · 27/04/2015 22:59

Lots of small shopkeepers in England don't know enough about Scottish banknotes, to be able to recognise a forgery. So they won't take them. I can't blame them.

funnyossity · 27/04/2015 23:01

The reasons behind the (possible/expected) extinction of UK wide political parties is worthy of curiosity I think.

Original poster
chocoluvva · 27/04/2015 23:01

You can use the tube in Glasgow too btw!

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 27/04/2015 23:03

Subway!

starwarslegoboy · 27/04/2015 23:10

Ok Choc

I am first gen Scottish - Irish born parents. I have always said I'm Scottish, my mother is adamant that I am Irish (pup born in stable shit). It pissed her off that I said I was Scottish. A lot. There is Nationalism for you

I feel Scottish, because I am. I don't think I am better than anyone else, but why should Scotland's vote mean fuck all unless England agrees with us? With that logic, England might as well tell Scotland how to vote. (well the newspapers and politicans are trying now). I realise the current situation is an eye opener for the average unassuming English voter, but we have been dealing with this shit for years. Thatcher desecrated industry in Scotland (and North of England) ad funded her bargain sales of the nation's assets with North Sea Oil.

The UK election system is a scandal. Things have to change. It doesn't have to be the break up of the UK but it will result in that if the UK parties continue on their current path

Eigg · 27/04/2015 23:23

I responded earlier in the thread regarding my Scottish identity and have specifically stated that it is not related to current politics.

I'm not sure why you are so hell bent on categorising and defining Scottish values as a single set.

Identity, is, by its very nature, personal surely. I'm not comfortable with the idea of saying that you need to be/feel/believe a certain set of things in order to be French or Swiss for example. Surely that leads to stereotyping. It leads to people being able to say 'you are not a good French/Scots/Swiss person because you don't believe these things'. As Sir Chenin and others have commented this is a divisive and offensive proposition.

My Scottish identity stems from my personal relationship with the country, the land, its history, culture and the communities I've participated in. Others may have formed different relationships or values, but it doesn't make them any less Scottish.

I don't understand what purpose or value your desire to lock down a Scottish paradigm has?

It's not practical or particularly useful in my opinion.

Do you want people to define particular attributes of Scots just so you can argue that they aren't uniquely Scottish?

Apologies if I'm misrepresenting/misunderstanding your purpose here but I've followed the whole thread but the implication seems to be that if you can't define what makes a person Scottish to a nice neat list then you can't claim it as an identity - which is quite frankly nonsense.

I imagine if you ask 1000 French/Egyptian/Icelandic people how they define their own sense of nationality you'd get 1000 different explanations as to why they felt French/Egyptian/Icelandic.

And I bet you wouldn't keep hammering on to a French person that they only feel French because they aren't historically or politically happy with Germany next door? Of course not.

If course not everyone living in Scotland will identify as Scottish. But many, many people do. For lots of different reasons. Do those reasons inform their voting behaviour? Possibly. Does it mean they'll all vote the same way? Of course not.

My Mother and I are both ardent Scots.

Do we vote the same way?

Not for the last 20 years.

starwarslegoboy · 27/04/2015 23:35

Good post Eigg

Eigg · 27/04/2015 23:39

Thanks Lego.

Original poster
chocoluvva · 27/04/2015 23:44

Scotland's vote - if you want to put it that way - does make a difference - there are 59 Scottish seats in a 650 seat parliament - which is about the right proportion given the proportion of Scottish voters to ruk voters.

But The idea of a 'Scottish vote' could only be significant if the majority of the Scottish electorate vote the same way - which it might well do next week! unusually. For voters who don't strongly identify as Scottish, the votes in the other Scottish constituencies matter no more or less than the votes in rUK constituencies. The same probably applies to other areas of UK.

Posters have complained about things like English people carelessly using the term, 'the north,' refusing to accept Scottish bank notes etc; IIRC it was me who first brought up those things, but the same posters go on about a Scottish vote, often meaning labour, ignoring the significant number of other seats voted for by Scottish voters especially the lib dems. Do you see the irony?

I asked about the notion of Scottish identity - and English identity btw - in good faith. As I've said, I'm from a sparsely populated area of Scotland which hasn't voted labour or snp so in some ways I'm in a minority. And I was aware that snp is now very popular in scotland. I did suspect that posters would not find much to describe in the way of significantly Scottish differences and that has been shown to be the case so far on this thread, IMO. As I believe that the only justification for Scottish independence; the raison d'etre of the snp, is to meet the needs of a significantly different population if snp supporters can't find differences their motivation must be coming from somewhere else.

I agree that the FPTP system is not good. It makes it almost impossible for very small parties to get a look in, amongst other problems. Sometimes I get the impression that some people believe there is no alternative to the current electoral system but to vote for independence when I feel their arguments are really for a change to the electoral system.

I'm off to bed now. Thank you everyone who has helped me understand the reasons for their political choices.

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Eigg · 27/04/2015 23:49

choco goodnight.

I'm pleased you found the thread useful but I'm not entirely sure you've been listening.