To not want DD to have play-dates or attend parties in certain areas due to safety concerns?

[HourOrTwo]

She is 7. Until now she only has playdates with friends whose parents we know well, but now she has a bigger group of friends. Some of these friends live on local council estates. One of these estates has a particularly bad reputation (drug problems, unemployment, high crime rate). When I drove through it recently I noticed kids playing out in street, groups of youths standing around smoking and drinking, big dogs in studded collars roaming around (no muzzles), rubbish everywhere etc. I don't mean to sound judgemental but it's not the sort of place we want DD playing or walking around.

We're happy for DD's friends to come play at ours, and we want her to socialise with children from social different backgrounds... but recently she's been invited on several play-dates on these estates plus a party. So far I've made excuses, as I don't want her playing out unsupervised and TBH don't like her going to houses unless I know the parents and trust them to keep a close eye on her. Even if I chatted to these mums at school gates and they promise to supervise, I don't want her going to houses where anyone is smoking, drinking or teenage siblings are coming in and out with their mates, or any household with a dangerous dog (there are a lot of pitbulls and rottweilers on the estate), but I can't really ask this.

How do we politely decline these play-dates without offending anyone? Is there a way we can have DD's friends at our house without her going to their houses? And what do I tell DD, without mentioning it's because of the area her friends live?

Cook, you are the voice of reason on this thread of sheer lunacy.

Iv'e lived on council estate's across Gateshead all my life in very high crime, high levels of poverty areas, never once have i seen hordes of teenagers on every street corner, harnessed loose status dogs, pissed people with cans and junkies all over who drop their syringes whilst driving through an estate, not once. I have drove through a lot of council estate's

Maybe now and again over about 30 years but i think the Ops just posted a massive stereotypical rant about council estates and 'council estate mother s' She has took everything people associate with council estate's and put them into one post in a judgey, snobbish way.

Of course some estates are worse than other's but most people haven't got a status dog, pissed up teens, wallow in poverty or smoke and drink in front of their kids friends after inviting them for a play-date

Christ

You find it insulting that I lived on an estate where there were a small number of families, that I estimated were about 2-3% of the population among young families and elderly people, who behaved in antisocial ways and had frightening out of control dogs?

What insults you about my experience, exactly? Do you think the old woman who lived next door who had been there since she first got married was delighted by this happening on her estate just because their family have always lived and she had bought her own home off the council?

There are estates that have problems. To pretend there are no estates with problems that are visible on a drive through is just liberal, middle class namby pambyism. It's just really weird that people can be insulted by someone stating that antisocial behaviour does exist on some council estates. The statistics are there to prove that this does happen on some estates.

In my experience both personally and professionally, it's usually confined to a small number of families who are living chaotic, unpredictable lives - but if you drive through and see evidence of this, it's really pretty silly to pretend that the vast majority of people, regardless of social background or class, are going to find it uncomfortable and frightening.

Well done Cook

Duplodon I'm sorry but your experience is not representative of the whole. I also grew up on a council estate and my life was nothing like that. I'm not saying my experience is representative either, I'm just saying you can't write off all estates as shit dangerous places just because that was your experience of one.

My estate was an inner city London one with a horrendous reputation. Seriously, people visibly recoiled when I told them where I lived. Yet we played outside all summer, loved all the neighbourhood dogs, had great times together.

I never even saw drugs until I was at uni. In the hands of a nice MC youth from a nice MC family in a nice MC neighbourhood.

Okay, so the government invests in initiatives like Families First and others directed at low income families and the like because no one living in poverty has ever lived in a council estate, and certainly no one on a council estate has ever experienced marginalisation or the sorts of difficulties arising from poverty, including crime, drugs, youth unemployment, lower levels of literacy, higher levels of domestic violence and mental health difficulties that are reflected in research on areas of low income and high crime internationally, including in the UK?

It is inconceivable that there are social problems affecting maybe 2-3% of the population of council estates?

I didn't write ANY estate off as a shit dangerous place. I said if there WERE visible signs of drug use and/or weapon dogs on an estate - which there are, on some estates - that would be a sign THAT estate was statistically more likely to be risky than another place.

I honestly think there's serious delusion about the serious negative consequences of living in high crime, high poverty estates.

Dup I'm not arguing against that at all, I'm saying the OP is being precious and unreasonable thinking her DD isn't going to be safe playing at one of these children's houses. I think you are arguing a different issue altogether, one I don't disagree with.

I think the OP sounds HIGHLY anxious, but I would contend that her reaction is one that arises out of media manipulation of what we're supposed to think - that everyone with a lower income is like something out of shameless and that poverty is about morality, not poverty eg the feckless poor.

The problem as I see it is when the only response to the natural fears that arise out of people like the OP being told over and over by the media that every council estate is Shameless combining with visible signs of poverty on a particular estate is to say "no council estate ever in the history of the world had any problems with antisociality, crime or poverty" it sort of reinforces the idea of the feckless poor.. so people who are living in estates where there are gangs or people engaging in crime aren't suffering or, if perpetrating themselves, products of toxic, hopeless environments who are just as deserving of time and compassion as any other human being and deserving of governmental expenditure to support the poissibilty of better lives, but just "bad uns" who just happen to live on the worst estates by chance.

I don't know the answer to it by the way. Of course the level of antisocial behaviour is very low on most estates, but if you CAN see it, that is going to cause problems for children who live on those estates, no matter how nice their families are, and we can't hold the OP responsible for having a reaction. The government funds initiatives like Families First to try and tackle some of these issues, but let's not pretend that there aren't issues in some places, and that having fears of encountering these issues is just "snobbery" rather than very carefully media-manipulated fear.

Sorry - terrible sentence in the middle paragraph - got distracted by a toddler as I was editing it!

Dup I totally get what you are saying and you are right. I'm aware the media manipulates the public into thinking things that aren't true. However, my 'council estate mum' worked incredibly hard to bring us up well, to ensure we did well academically, to look after us, to give us a home that was nice to live in. The fact that, based on the reasons she has given, the OP would not have allowed her DD to come and play with myself or my siblings makes me very, very angry.

Media manipulation is only half an excuse. I know, for example, that all Muslims aren't terrorists despite what the Daily Mail would have me believe. I know this because I am an intelligent person.

So, Dup, I take your point and agree with you, but I think you are cutting the OP too much slack here. She is clearly not stupid and should know better. I believe one of the greatest things we can teach our DCs is open-mindedness.

I've had an interesting read and I should now leave but somehow I've been sucked in.

OP - you ask how you can politely decline - well its simple just do it, but don't expect the declined mum to be full of warmth and glow about it because I suspect that it will be impossible to not come across as a snob given how your posts have read.

Or you can get to know 1 or 2 of the mums that ask if your daughter would like to go round - maybe not in a formal lets go for a coffee kind of way but just start being open and talk to her. Say that you get a bit anxious about playdates and you don't like your daughter going on playdates where you don't really know the family - but maybe you could get to know the family - you can suggest a playdate together at the park with the kids, and so on where you spend more time and can go through your fears about unsupervised street play, dogs and the presence of teenager. With a bit of luck you'll find that there are plenty of nice families on council estates and its not quite as bad as you currently seem to think about them.

Perhaps, but I try to be open-minded about everyone. Don't always manage it, but I try. I think some people really struggle with seeing beyond the end of their own noses, and perhaps more so the more their lives match the "mainstream" that happens to be in play at any one point in time.

I've had a lot of very different experiences - from being in really awful situations with people who are really at the lowest of the low in every imaginable way to being in very high status places with people who are living the dream - so I don't need a lot of imagination to keep my mind open. Not everyone is so lucky. I have a lot of compassion for people who live in fear because of prejudice. A lot of people really struggle with taking their blinkers off, but I really do believe your ability to have a bit more clarity around these issues is half-chance and depends a lot on your learning history, much more than any moral or personality traits.

I think OP just doesn't have a lot of experience of people living differently to her. I see this as being a bit sad for her and her dd, rather than feeling angry that she has certain viewpoints.

My mother came from a rough estate herself, and as a consequence, didn't let me play with kids of various families in our town when I was growing . I was merciless to her about her snobbery when my sister came up after me. So my sister was allowed make friendships with all sorts of people I wasn't. It wasn't all plain sailing. My sister ended up in some very sticky situations in her early teens in people'e houses where there was freely available drink and drugs.

It's easy to just call snobbery, but peer relationships are massively more influential as time goes on and there are a range of people who are living in poverty who do lead chaotic, unpredictable and sometimes dangerous lives as well as people who are living stable, ordinary lives. It is just naivety to think otherwise. I work in a social care context now and I have every compassion, love and understanding for people in extreme circumstances as no one really chooses to live like that... But would I let my kids play at these houses? No.

I think in this case, you don't have information, just fear.. But it is equally silly to pretend toxic living environments don't have the capacity to create toxic situations and to ignore gut instincts of discomfort and unease based purely on the idea there are no differences between people. I would want to know more. My usual marker is to watch how people are with their kids. If there are signs of coercion and fear in their school gate interactions, I would discourage further contact. I see this all the time at our school gates.. Parents who drag kids, or roar at them or tell them to shut up as soon as look at them.

IDK why i find some of your posts insulting, insulting is probably the wrong word, idk if its because you constantly go on about poverty or whatever then about luckily escaping from your council estate because you can see why people wouldn't want their kids visiting you all because of a couple of antisocial families with status dogs and the look of the estate but admit 98% of the people were fine, then your sister mixed with the people from your mothers rough estate and surprisingly ended up with problems you didn't have because she didn't allow you to mix with them.

You defend the op yet she would rather find a way to get her dd out of playdates on the council estate than to just approach the mothers as they huddle together and look at her 'funny' and ask them if they will be letting dd play out unsupervised, all she has to say is sorry DD won't be visiting as i don't let her play out without adult supervision. The teenager thing is ridiculous and based on what one friend said about her DD going to someone's house and their kid being left with rowdy teenagers while the mother was at work. The 'council estate mothers' huddle together, maybe they think the same about op and her mates if they are discussing where they all live and their childcare arrangements

The best thing the Op can do is just decline the offer's stating she doesn't allow dd to play out or go to parties unsupervised, after a while they will stop asking her to go on playdate's and to parties on the estate and she can go to playdate's and parties with friend's who's parents are the same as her, problem solved.

'The fact that, based on the reasons she has given, the OP would not have allowed her DD to come and play with myself or my siblings makes me very, very angry'

Are you sure OP would decline a play-date though? If she invited your mum in for cup of tea and your mum accepted, maybe trust would be established. It's not all about how OP reacts, both mums have a role to play. Would your mum have assumed OP a snob for asking questions about supervision, food and dogs? Would she sneer at OP for wanting her DD supervised not playing out alone? Would she laugh at child scared of dogs/teenagers and say she was being wrapped in cotton wool? Or would she try to reassure an anxious mum her DD would be safe, even in a new environment? Would she recognise DD is not streetwise and reassure mum DD will get extra care, will not be left alone in house with teenage boys etc?
I suspect if your mum was friendly and reassuring, OP would let DD go on the playdate.

IME mums are often very anxious about new environments. I remember when my DSD had a party for 12 friends, sleeping in tents in our garden. It's a very big garden with several gaps in wall and fields on 2 sides, woods on other side. Very isolated. Tents were positioned just out of sight of house in a dip, girls wanted to have a fire, roast marshmallows that sort of thing, I had no concerns as DSC often camp in garden and are very sensible. To my surprise 2 of the mums were very anxious when they realised tents were some way from house. They didn't feel it was safe, didn't want their girls camping out of sight with no adult present. One referred to a news case from decades ago when a girl was abducted from a tent by a paedophile and murdered. I admit I thought them extreme and a bit silly, but their DDs had never camped out before, our garden wasn't enclosed or secure etc. Both girls slept in our lounge instead (they didn't want to but mums were adamant this was safer). Of course DSD and others were fine in tents. But I understand WHY those mums were anxious- it was a situation they had never been in before, they had heard stories about bad things happening to girls camping, and they needed things adapting for them.

If people tried to understand others 'irrational' fears more, instead of sneering and criticising, there would be far less stereotyping and less barriers between people from different backgrounds.

But yet it's ok for OP to sneer at families and pets she knows nothing whatsoever about? Double standards much?

And yes my mum would have thought the OP was a snob if she had said 'I assume as you live on a council estate that you let your children play out unsupervised, please don't let my DD do that. Also I assume your dog is a child mauling one so please keep it away from my DD. Oh and also my DD is fussy and won't eat this, this, this and this, so please adjust your menus accordingly'.

I mean, let's call a spade a spade right? The OP is making this assumption based entirely on where these people live and nothing else and yet it's dressed up as 'concern for her DD's safety'.

And if you mean i should take my blinker's off, luckily i don't have to as my kids friend's who live on the private estate their parent's let them come down the council estate even though there's a couple of dick heads in the flat's who walk about on vallium but have no interest in the kids and some teenagers in the one bed's who seem to have parties then get evicted then get replaced with more teenagers doing the same, that's gone on for years. If there are dog's walking about off the lead they usually get reported and the council send a warning letter, same for fouling. The estate manager on her weekly round's usually pick up on anything dodgy looking and sort's it out, she knocked at mine and told me to sort my back garden out in 7 days. Thing's were different in the 80's and 90's but the policy now is to stamp out any anti-social behaviour and they have laws to back this up. If things are going unreported then they will carry on. Maybe its only the councils in the NE do this ?

singing councils in the north west do it too. my housing association does the rounds to ensure the gardens are kept properly, that tenants are behaving appropriately, and the local council has litter pickers come round fairly often, and have people doing walk around looking for any signs of anti social behavior etc. . the council tried to shut down the community centre here, but as we are all concerned about everyone that lives here we petitioned and it is back up and running. they host parties for children, coffee morning for young parents, Christmas dinner for the elderly etc.
run by volunteers who live on my estate. yet we are the dregs of society? we look out for each other and ensure our estate is the best it can be despite it's reputation.

OP are you talking about an estate in Oxford by any chance?

No, I didn't mean you were blinkered.

I'm sorry my posts pissed you off. They're not meant to piss anyone off. I just think it's... complicated. I don't think it does anyone who is in a shit situation in a bad estate (and there are plenty great estates, which are great communities) much good to pretend it's okay, that's all. It's pretty shit if you are in a place that feels unsafe.

I think OP is just probably very anxious. I think it's far more to do with her experiences of being assaulted than it is about snobbery. I don't think she's sneering, I think she's terrified and trying to find a way to explain that terror. I feel sorry for anyone who lives their life afraid.

my estates pretty quite but the one down the road i was brought up on had a really bad rep, it's got a nickname it's so bad, if people ask where i am from in another town they always make a comment, it was pretty bad in the 80's and 90's with joyriding and drugs but it's fine now, has the normal usual most estates have, a few anti-social houses but the council will and do now evict if people complain especially in the last 5 years. They have a community center and do stuff you have mentioned, not sure if kids from another towns parent's would let them go but it's fine has unfortunately just got a bad name for itself which has stuck

Ops just going to have to either decline or accept and see what happen's. If she want's her DD supervised there is nothing wrong with that especially if she always has been and she's not comfortable with her playing out, she just need's to ask the mothers, she might find some are fine with it or they do supervise anyway, why would they put their DCs at risk never mind someone else's, can't see them inviting her if dd's going to run back saying they were snorting line's of coke off the dining table whilst booting their staffie all over

my uncle was horrified to learn I was moving here but I have been here since my DS was 14 months old, he is now six and a half and I have never had a problem (apart from the red ants in my garden )

I think Doplodon's posts hit the nail on the head and are very wise.
I also think OP just sounds anxious, I don't think she's sneering at anyone or looking down on people.

Parsnip, you seem certain the mums will all think OP is a snob. But what if she voiced her worries differently eg 'I don't let DD to go anywhere beyond the garden without an adult. Please would you make sure she doesn't leave your house without an adult? I'd rather she stayed indoors actually as she's scared of dogs. Would it be ok to tie your dog up/keep him in another room while she's there? Also would you let me know if you have to pop out so I can collect her early? I'd rather you were in the house at all times, she sometimes gets a bit upset in new places and needs a mother-figure to turn to. I know your older daughter's around but I'd feel better if you were there to keep an eye on things.'

Or would she still come across as a snob?