To think a teacher can not successfully differentiate for mixed ability class where there is a spread of children on the p scales and children who are top end of level 6

[ReallyTired]

Ie. Class of 30 children, year 5 and no ta full time support. I can't see how it is humanly possible for a teacher to teach such a wide range of ability without help. Crazy.

Inclusion is stupid and purely to save money.

Inclusion needs to be done on an individual basis, it isn't stupid and many schools can give excellent provision. Depends on the needs, the training and the provision possible and actual.

I would query the level 6 pupils in year 5. Level 6 is the average expected level for Year 9 pupils. Although, lrvels are now defunct and most schools are moving towards a new form of assessment. In any case, yhe new primary curriculum means that schools now an deliver age appropriate curriculum and then focus on improving a pupil's application of the skill across a wider breadth of challenges. This means bright pupils develop their application of the skill learnt rather than jump ahead to the next stage. Differentiation is easier because pupils are being taught the same skill but challenged differently. All pupils on p levels would have the support of an lsa as those pupils would undoubtedly have a statement of SEN. The support would be a legal requirement.

Inclusion is not stupid. The hijacked use of the word 'Inclusion' to represent a child physically present in a mainstream classroom, regardless of the fact that educationally and socially they are actually isolated, is what is stupid.

And for the poster that says 'more often than not it is the parents who are part of the problem', I hope that your blaming of parents for your own insecurities lead you to either seek additional training or another career.

DD is in mixed ability in high school, other than maths, and will be for the next 3 years - whilst there is a wide gap they teach to the mid level - this results in the top being frustrated and the lower end not keeping up. There are 4 special needs kids with support in literacy but nothing else. They are functioning additional needs and by no needs the most needy in school - who in their right mind cant see all but 10 kids are being let down? (By the system not teachers)

Unhealthily, I think reading music will be a very helpful skill for ds. However I have some sympathy for his approach as it was mine. I did learn eventually, when the piece became too complex to remember in my head (Flute) and I had to seek out 'visual support'. I got my grade 7 (20 odd years ago), but I think it is pretty interesting that I can't read music now. I got grade 4 on the viola without ever having learnt the alto cleff at all. Sight reading was a best guestimate but passed on the basis that I had good rhythm I think.

Well I have left full time teaching, not because I blame parents, most of whom I found to be the best resource in helping children with additional needs (although there was a minority that added to the problems we all faced), but due to the utter impossibility of doing a good enough job. Not enough time, bodies or expertise. It is depressing to feel as if, despite herculean efforts that mean I had no life at all outside work, I was still letting children down.

Sorry, that is not at all helpful, is it? But sadly true for me. I am hoping to do further study now to actually research the evidence base for the interventions we are supposed to use to help children. I suspect many of them were pretty pointless.

'And for the poster that says 'more often than not it is the parents who are part of the problem', '

Starlight, if you consider the wider classroom, not just those children with additional needs related to a disability, sometimes some parents are part of the problem. Some are intentionally abusive, some are neglectful for a number of reasons. The chidren bring that into the classroom and it impacts on everything they do.

The OP was not focused on SEN, but on the ability spread within a class.

I can consider the wide classroom context, and still contest that 'more often than not' it is the parent's fault.

I don't doubt there are some really shit parents, just like there are some really shit teachers, but the poster that said this was referring to the norm and them 'more often'.

'I am hoping to do further study now to actually research the evidence base for the interventions we are supposed to use to help children. I suspect many of them were pretty pointless.'

I think that would be very helpful indeed and put your skills to very good use, hopefully helping the next generation of children. You can track the effectiveness of interventions to an extent by measuring rate of progress before and comparing with what follows, however you can never ensure that the intervention is the 'most efficacious' this way, nor be totally certain that it was the intervention that caused the improvement.

I think many schools who do have the resources and are trying their best are still wasting a lot of time, energy and resource putting in interventions that at best provide little more than respite for the class teacher, and at worst are wasting that child's learning time when something much better for the same cost could be done.

IMO, a lot of the time-wasting is spent on meeting with LA personnel and trying to implement what is being sold as expertise/good practice when it is nothing of the sort and often wholly unrealistic to implement in a classroom context.

To the OP, I do think it is unreasonable to expect teachers to handle such big classrooms with so many different abilities.

I have children at the top of the ability level. They are frequently bored and frustrated, but I don't blame the teachers. I blame the system.

On the other, and this is me from the outside looking in, I see children with obvious, heavy SEN and wonder how well it is working for them. Their presence is enriching for my own children who love these other children and learn a lot socially and emotionally from their presence. But sometimes it doesn't look like the SEN kids are progressing much themselves.

The idea of all ability classes sounds great in theory. But I think it needs to be properly resourced and financed.

If we can't afford the right class sizes, materials, and teacher training; it will fail. If we think it's too expensive, then we need to be more efficient and set/stream the children into similar ability groups so they are more efficient to teach. There is no point blaming teachers who are set up to fail.

yes, and without the pressure of a whole class to deal with I will be able to spend a proper amount of time on the issue.

I found the whole business of EPs totally frustrating too. So driven by cost issues that they failed to recommend any one to one provision, even when it is clearly needed. I don't think I ever had a useful intervention from an EP, yet they clearly were the ones with the expertise. Of course, I was limited in my experience of them, I could have just ended up with a couple of atypical rubbish ones.

I think the one of the worst things for me was the actual management of the children. I often knew what I could/should have been doing but was so limited by conflicting pressures. It makes me shudder just thinking about it.

I go on most school trips with my dd as she has ASD. I also spent quite a lot of time in the classroom with ds when he was in school (also has ASD) I honestly don't know how teachers manage to actually teach anything at all, the practical day to day management of a class of thirty children, some with additional needs, seems to me to be a full time back breaking job. I am in the middle of a degree and had considered teaching but I do not think it's something I could do. Far rather a TA, who while equally busy does not have to carry the same amount of responsibilities and weight.

Starlight, would you be interested in thinking about an approach to notation that I have been thinking through for a number of years (with Moondog's "voice" in my head).

I'm thinking about how mastery of the score might help him stay in the choir x

Oooh, yes definitely. Perhaps we could continue on another thread or through DM. Unhealthily

He is perfectly capable of learning notation but he's lazy and like me focussed on the outcomes rather than the method, so if he can get away with using his talents (ear) then why slow himself down having to scan, read words, remember which line he is supposed to be reading as he turns pages etc. So even when we have attempted to teach him, he's fudged it, kinda learnt it, and then forgotten it in no time.

But it means when learning a new piece (tune and words) he stands there looking uncomfortable and confused staring at the wrong page. Then we 'borrow' the music and practice at home, which is interesting if I don't know the tune because I can't read music fluently either (I understand it, and can pick the tune out eventually on a keyboard, after making many mistakes with the key signature and by learning the intervals off by heart if they are large ones).

It's all fun in our house - lol

Level 6 is the average expected level for Year 9 pupils. Although, lrvels are now defunct and most schools are moving towards a new form of assessment. In any case, yhe new primary curriculum means that schools now an deliver age appropriate curriculum and then focus on improving a pupil's application of the skill across a wider breadth of challenges.

But the new curriculum and the new KS2 tests include level 6.

That's one of the problems Humphrey LA have a statutory duty to meet the educational needs of all children, including those with SEN.

It is illegal not to provide for an identified need. However, it is not illegal to fail to identify a need. Or at least not challengeable until the end of a child's education at which point it is very difficult to point to what exactly led to the failure of that child to achieve.

So EP's fail to find need, recommend nothing that will cost if they do find need, and LA offer schools training in how to lower their expectations for these kids and how to blame parents.

It is depressing, isn't it?

Where shall we meet then Starlight? Over in the music section?
Not AIBU, yhough this is a very civilised thread for AIBU!

I'm optimistic I can help as this is kind of what I do now. I'm the moondog of music ed (well, not that good maybe :))

Feenie- as I understand it, this is the last year in which you SATs will be levelled. The proposal going forward is that pupils with be graded as either 'high school ready' or 'not high school ready'. I'm a secondary school teacher, so I'm going off what our feeder schools and my husband (primary teacher) tell me. Never had a pupil come up to us in year 7 as a level 6. I've been head of year 7 for 8 years.

Of course it's possible to teach all of the kids and even differentiate with such a spread of abilities and not much TA time. However to do this effectively so each child makes good progress in relation to their ability absolutely not! Even if the the teacher plans each lesson to the finest degree and differentiate accordingly they won't be fit to deliver anything as they will be worn out from the planning.

Definitely not reasonable to expect someone to teach like this and not fair on either pupils or the teacher. Sadly this is all too common in education today.

I would say anyone who thinks this is fine needs to have a go at doing it themselves and any teacher who says it's fine I have to ask about their work/life balance as I can't see how you would have one.