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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think a teacher can not successfully differentiate for mixed ability class where there is a spread of children on the p scales and children who are top end of level 6

130 replies

ReallyTired · 24/04/2015 17:53

Ie. Class of 30 children, year 5 and no ta full time support. I can't see how it is humanly possible for a teacher to teach such a wide range of ability without help. Crazy.

OP posts:
StarlightMcKenzee · 24/04/2015 22:21

Actually, he doesn't seem to flap much after choir either. But we had to do 'no flapping' training, and then he transferred it, so we had to do no shifting about from one foot to the next training.

Poor ds. But unfortunately Equity Act or not, the reality is he'll be chucked out if he can't conform, and his desperate dream is to sing at the Royal Albert Hall, which this choir do annually (with another million choirs I think, but we'll figure that out when we get there).

bloodyteenagers · 24/04/2015 22:21

When my ds was in school it used to really frustrate me that I would try and talk to his teachers about what worked at home and what just aggravated the situation, and I was dismissed. We have our own way of dealing with things. We have to do this instead of doing that. I would tell them to not try and hold him when he was in a state because it made things worse, instead just ignore him. Did they listen? No, because they were told this was the way to go.
Every week I would get a call asking me to come and collect him. Every week I would go, and be told he had done x,y or z. Usually because of something that triggered him, and they had done x which of course made things a lot worse. Every week I would tell them again the triggers to be fobbed off. I even put everything in writing.
Then of course the mentions of they couldn't cope. But if they listened they would have gotten ideas. Just they couldn't cope, yet when finally he was being assessed they denied anything was a problem.

I now work in a school. Have done for several years. I make a point of talking to parents. I actively encourage it because I believe it's a partnership and we need to work together. They have things that work at home, and they tell me. I find new things that work in school and I let them know. I do home visits for new starters, I go visit the previous school when it's a transfer. Parents have my email. I even have parents of pupils I am not involved with approach me in school because others have told them I will listen. SLT know all of this. They when I need support I request it. At times when I haven't coped I have asked for help. And you know what yes I will get someone come to observe, but I work with that because until someone else sees what's going on, how do they know? I actively encourage SLT to come and see for themselves.

I am not on a support plan, I have never been on a support plan or anything else. I have the respect and the backing of the school because they see I try my damn hardest to make things work. In the past when they have said I need to make things work, I have asked them for suggestions. I have told them to come and see for themselves.

Unfortunately not everyone in the school is like this. They complain the parents are over involved. They complain that when they go and mention things aren't going too good, it means someone wants to observe. They complain because they don't want the lesson to be observed, so no extra support is given. They complain because other are given more help than them, and won't accept its because they have worked with others to get this. I really don't like working with these teachers. I am there to help and I am stonewalled when I ask what strategies have been used.

StarlightMcKenzee · 24/04/2015 22:27

Oh that's fab unhealthy choir and piano. Will the finger-nimbleness improve? School still going well?

DS is home-educated now. We removed him from his special school and he went from p-levels when we started in Sept to no idea what but he's flying through year 4 maths, and currently working at year 2 Literacy. And is above expected for music and uneven but year 1-3 science.

Should have removed him when my Dad told me to.

StarlightMcKenzee · 24/04/2015 22:33

Upbeetroot It was what I learned on both my Governor training and from my parents (Dad ITT trainer, Mum Advisory Teacher).

OrlandoWoolf · 24/04/2015 22:37

starlight

Look at the TES boards,Look at health and wellbeing.

It's very very easy to get rid of a teacher. Competent or not. It could be called bullying or just pressure.

But let me assure you, many teachers are forced out by heads. Especially new heads. A clean sweep and all that.

It's true that officially there are not many teachers sacked for being incompetent. That's because it rarely gets to that stage. They are forced out way before that.

But then Gove etc can say that it's hard to get rid of incomptent teachers.

StarlightMcKenzee · 24/04/2015 22:37

Bloodyteen I've met teachers like you. Thank goodness I know they do exist otherwise there'd be no hope at all.

Fortunately there appear to be a number at my daughter's school, though it hasn't been fully tested as she doesn't have SEN.

But thank you for posting.

StarlightMcKenzee · 24/04/2015 22:40

I can't look at the TES boards. Every time I do I see blatant evidence of SEN failure and statemented provision-sharing and law breaking.

I'm not welcomed for pointing that out.

ReallyTired · 24/04/2015 22:52

Heads can even bully lowly support staff who simply process the dinner money. I am surprised that there are not more cases of staff taking schools to employment tribunals. Some head teachers think they are above employment law. I had to fight tooth and nail to get my job back after maternity leave. With so many schools being academies there is no longer the personal department at county to make arrogant heads understand their legal responsibilities.

OP posts:
Unhealthyinterestinme · 24/04/2015 22:53

"Trouble is, he can't read music, and I doubt will do for a long time, because as soon as the tune is played through or modelled once, he knows it just by having heard it. That doesn't work well in the choir because he sings everyone else's parts in his gaps so we have to work on that a lot outside of choir."

Oh fascinating. I still do that when playing in string quartets -steal the other violin's line.

Do you A want him to learn to read music and B want some thought from me?

Unhealthyinterestinme · 24/04/2015 22:54

Or even thoughts?

Unhealthyinterestinme · 24/04/2015 22:57

Star, I think DS2's agility/nimbleness is now within normal range but low normal IYSWIM. In the era of garageband it's not such a problem.

Buxhoeveden · 24/04/2015 22:59

This thread demonstrates very well what goes wrong.

Teachers are in a state of seige and woefully under-trained in SEN.

Parents who do get trained, informed, educated, or are merely articulate and keen to communicate get filed as 'sharp elbowed' and ignored.

If I had a £ for every time my input was sidelined in 26 years of having AS DC in the system, I'd be on a permenant private cruise. Many teachers are uncomfortable dealing with well-informed parents and only eant to deal with mythical EPs.

At the same time, so many SENCOs are appointed early in career, without support, or without the basic mandatory training. Or all three. So it isn't really surprising that they don't welcome parents who know the condition in question, are up to date on best practice and have read the SEN code of practice. I wouldn't either if I'd been left to flounder and the IEPs hadn't been done. (I could paper my spare room with retrospectively forged IEPs).

bloodyteenagers · 24/04/2015 23:04

Should have added I am not a teacher in the traditional sense. But I do have more pressure because I have to work to show that I am needed, so it's easier to get rid of me. Have to be very vague to not out me. I do lots of intervention from 1-2-1 to whole class, that I have to plan etc for. All of these are at varying stages in education from the p levels up to around level 3. Some of this goes into the ehcps. I try to work with teachers and as I said not all are receptive to this. Like the teachers I have to show progress as well.
I put in requests for staff and resources and once justified I generally get it. I pass on the resources to the teacher for the student to be used in class. It remains in a box until my next session. Yet they complain about the lack of help/support.
I send info over that helps. It is ignored.
I send in equipment that I have had to request for, I take time to train the class staff how to use it. I give ideas how this can be used in the class. Again it's not used... But then the next thing, teacher complains no help.

When I first meet someone from EP, salt etc about a student I tell them I have already tried various interventions, rewards, visual timetables including changing the colour background , here is the situation and I am looking for new ideas. If you have nothing new to bring, well thanks for seeing me but let's not waste each other's time.. Yes they probably hate me lol, but I am not going to sit and waste time listening to things we have tried. I am not going to sit and waste time because we both know you have had a brief before we meet in person.

Unhealthyinterestinme · 24/04/2015 23:09

You are a teacher but not a class teacher. Like me.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 24/04/2015 23:19

most parents of kids with SN are not as well informed as yourself. It would be great if they were. More often than not they are part of the problem not the solution.

I actually have no words for that...

Redlocks28 · 24/04/2015 23:46

I am a school Governor and have learned that it is practically impossible to get rid of a teacher for incompetence or for failing children.

Ten years ago, maybe. Not now.

You say your mum was an advisory teacher and your dad worked in ITT. When did either teach full time? I really don't think you have the full picture.

ReallyTired · 25/04/2015 00:59

Even ten years ago head teachers could get rid of teachers they did not like because their face did not fit. A school is like any other work place in that your boss can make life hell.

OP posts:
FloatIsRechargedNow · 25/04/2015 01:23

^^what Lonny said - it is actually assumed by many teachers that we parents of SN dc have SNs too, even at ds's indie SS. And in the past I have found that some teachers can wield great power over parents - particularly if they have to wait a long time to get their dc assessed and diagnosed - because these teachers put all the problems down to the parents before then and can in fact hinder the diagnostic process with 'educational advice' based on their poor-parenting assumptions. I have known some very young teachers grin with glee as I pointed out that when ds was excluded that meant I couldn't leave the house either, not allowed out in public you see. "Sending the message home" they called it.

But overall I think it depends on the Head - I've met some power crazed loons in that position - and undoubtedly more teachers leave because of bullying heads and SLT placing undue pressure on them, as I read on the TES boards.

And I agree with the OPs first post - it is unrealistic to expect any teacher to teach aided or not to such a wide range of abilities, where no one gets the education or work life they deserve.

ReallyTired · 25/04/2015 01:49

Lot of parents with children who have special needs also have special needs themselves. However this does not mean that the parents are stupid. For example I have a friend with severe dyslexia whose child is severely disabled. The dyslexia makes it extra hard for her to get the provision her son needs.

OP posts:
afterthought2 · 25/04/2015 06:34

There isn't enough training in SEN. I have done a lot, but it has all come out of my own pocket and been done in my own time. The training has cost me more than £3000 in the last 5 years. It isn't right that I've had to pay this myself. Many teachers are not able to do this, and why should they have to?

Bullying is rife. In my first school, I was constantly told I was rubbish and put on monitoring. I resigned, and suddenly there was a massive improvement in my feedback. I have since worked in two schools and been consistently 'outstanding'.

My experience at my first school will stay with me, I find it very hard to bring up any issues I might be having supporting the children and instead spend hours trying to figure out for myself what to do. It usually helps the child but what I am doing is not sustainable for my own wellbeing. I can't just give up and let the children suffer as I care too much so my only option will be to leave the profession I love.

afterthought2 · 25/04/2015 06:41

ReallyTired - I think a lot of people don't consider the parents' needs as it isn't something you're really told about in teacher training. I am fairly sure that a parent in my class cannot read or write as letters that go home are never responded to. I invited them in once and they were asking the child to read things to them - I put 2 and 2 together.

It is awkward for me to ask as I don't want to make them feel bad and feel like I am judging them. I feel for the family as I imagine it means they haven't been able to fill in referral forms and been deemed as not caring instead. I invite them in now and ask them the questions and fill in the forms for them, but for them it is probably too late.

OneInEight · 25/04/2015 08:30

For balance the two teachers who were most active in seeking support for my ds's got promoted rather than sacked! It is a shame that there seems to be such an attitude that it is failure to admit you are not meeting the needs of particular children in your class. In our experience those who sort help ended up being far better able to manage the behaviour of our ds's. No doubt this dramatically reduced their stress levels and improved the learning of the rest of the class too.

OrlandoWoolf · 25/04/2015 08:41

It's not just about SEN - although these threads normally turn into SEN debates.

It's about 1 person being expected to help a wide range of children at different levels to learn. 30 children - all with different learning needs.

All expected to make progress. The wider the gap, the more challenging it is.

ASorcererIsAWizardSquared · 25/04/2015 08:48

wow, my kids school has two TA's per class as they are inclusive.

DS has some SN, he has ASD, ADHD, SPD and Dyspraxia, and there are 5 or 6 others in his class with varying levels of special needs. He also has access to a sensory room and the SENCo and Learning Mentors classrooms if he feels too overwhelmed by the classroom environment.

They still dont always get it right, but they've much more chance than a school that doesn't provide TA support!

HagOtheNorth · 25/04/2015 08:51

'It's about 1 person being expected to help a wide range of children at different levels to learn. 30 children - all with different learning needs.

All expected to make progress. The wider the gap, the more challenging it is.'


This. Different educational need, emotional needs, language needs, social needs, health needs...All of which fluctuate on a regular basis.

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