To think a teacher can not successfully differentiate for mixed ability class where there is a spread of children on the p scales and children who are top end of level 6

[ReallyTired]

Ie. Class of 30 children, year 5 and no ta full time support. I can't see how it is humanly possible for a teacher to teach such a wide range of ability without help. Crazy.

i agree Ineed its not about inclusion, its about saving money.

i agree with that too Ineed.

Why is it harder tits. Secondary children might have a wider range of needs but a substantial number of those without do not need the level of basic 'caring' that children in primary do. i.e. reminding to eat their lunch, wash their hands after the loo, get themselves to after school club, do up their coat zips. There may be the odd one but it is never the full 30.

i really think teachers are under tremendous and unsustainable pressure.
with breathtakingly demanding and stressful workloads and targets.
the govt has no fuckin' idea what's going on in schools.
i can see why so many are leaving the profession.

Add a couple of EAL students into the mix who do not speak any English

I think anyone who dared to speak up and say they couldn't need the needs of all the children would quickly find themselves on some sort of competency procedure. It isn't as simple as just being an adult and speaking up.

I have experienced many situations when teachers have been asked how children are doing and they say they are "fine" when they are so not fine!

Are any of the parents of the children with SNs trying ti get help for them! I and many other parents like me have been stuck in a loop for yrs trying to get help for our children.

I have had inaccurate levels written on Statutory Assessment paper work and other such rubbish!

I and many hundreds of parents like me are doing our damnedest to get our kids out of your classrooms and into specialist provision but we cant do it without your help!!

I appreciate how hard it is but these kids need you to fight their corner and get them the education they need

Does that type of class serve any child well? Is it the ones at either end who get a rare deal or just all of them?

TheTrouble Why are you talking to EPs? Why not the parents? Honesty there would go a long way to ease your burden. Usually the parents know a hell of a lot more about the particular child and how to engage them or plan for them than a visiting EP.

Like most parents of children with SEN. I have been on a substantial number of courses (40 days worth specifically) on how to teach my child skills, I have read over 100 books. You may have had an optional half-day SEN module in ITT to cover all SENs, followed by a few twilight sessions and perhaps the odd LA propaganda training on how to 'manage' a child with SEN (rather than educate them), whereas ALL of my training and knowledge-base is specific to my child, and most strategies I could share costs nothing or at least use resources already allocated but tweaked.

So why do teachers insist 'we are the experts', 'you need to trust us', 'we have your child's interests at heart' (well you might but that isn't the point), 'we are 'outstanding' teachers', ' and all the other fob-offs I have heard over the years?

I just don't understand it. Teachers complain but don't form allies with the one essential group who can genuinely help them, parents.

Parents and teachers want the same things (mostly, - not all teachers feel they are SEN teachers, though in state schools they have no right to choose who to teach), and together would be a force to be reckoned with for any LA or Government, but they insist on being so defensive and secretive about their inability to meet the needs of the most vulnerable in their classes.

And I say, 'how dare they?' These are the life chances of vulnerable children who because of their actions will never have the opportunity of having a job to risk.

YANBU. In my experience at primary, it's the children in the middle that are failed the most. The TA resource is used for the low ability children, the teacher teaches to the top (while much of it goes over the heads of the others) because she is being pushed to push the high ability ones by the head, and those in the middle that need extra support to reach their potential get whatever is left over.

Differentiation can only go so far, and it just doesn't work if the ability range in the class is too wide, no matter how much we are told that it's fine. It's not.

Composite classes should be banned IMO.

Are you a teacher Ptolemy?

Starlight it's me, lingle. I hope you remember me.
I'm teaching classroom music now. I have a big class of year 3s with many needs......and even with my background I can't meet them.
The reason is that I don't know them well enough.
I think that teachers would have to cancel a whole subject to devote enough time to learning from parents as you suggest. It might be worth it.
I also "teach" one to one (any kind of music for as long as we fancy). That does help me know the child and I usually know lots from the parents. That works well but I'm not a cheap resource.

Saying you are struggling in teaching is the best way to be forced to leave.

In an ideal world, there would be support given. But schools aren't like that. Supportive of children but horrible to staff.

I know teachers who teach KS2. All of KS2. 38 children. From just turned 7 up to nearly 12. That is hard.

Hi Unhealthy I do remember you. I agree with you regarding the 'full picture' but I would ask that the teacher spends the time she would with an EP discussing strategies for a particular child, and then the time reading the report etc. instead with the parents.

And I do realise that not all parents will be able to help but most will have better ideas than 'put a visual timetable up' which is something the teacher probably did way before the EP got around to visiting.

How wonderful that you are teaching music though. I hope it is going well. Is your ds still as musical as he was?

My DS is Year 3 now and has just passed an audition and got into a vary prestigious choir. It's the only hour of his life he is able to get through without flapping, and probably one of the most flapping-inducing experiences since it causes both anxiety and excitement due to the pace or learning expected and the musical harmonies. But it's just an hour and he loves it. He also plays violin and is in an orchestra but though has an excellent ear, can't coordinate well for the bowing.

Try 36, with 4 classed as needing statementing and 1 classed as probably really needing SLD school. My first year of teaching.

Probably worth remembering that 'needing statementing' is not synonymous with low ability sazzle.

And everything Starlight said

And I am sorry but the teacher is an adult, if he/she cannot meet the needs of all the children in the class, he/she needs to be brave enough to say something!

Do you know what happens if we say that? We are very quickly put on a 'support plan' which involves someone from SMT coming into our classroom weekly with a clipboard, criticising. I don't know any teachers in my school who has been 'brave enough to say something' who are still teaching. They have all been persecuted out of the job and left with a compromise agreement.

I'm still there. I am not 'brave enough to say something'. I have a mortgage to pay and can't afford to lose my job.

No, TA.

Starlight - I would love to work with a parent like you. In my experience though I have found that parents either have some form of SN themselves which I also then need to work with, or are very knowledgable but seem to be on the attack (although I can understand why if they have had to fight for their child). I would be more than happy to work harmoniously with a parent as they usually know their child best, but instead I've been verbally attacked when I've asked for their advice and been told I should know how to do my job! I appreciate though that my sample is not representative of all parents of children with SN, but I would guess I am not the only teacher who has experienced this.

Well then, I'm sure you know that the children in the middle are the key group for league table SATS results. The high ability will get their level 4s but those in the middle are the ones that get all the coaching.

Of course whether you call that education or not is an argument I suppose.

Listening to parents, admitting you don't know what to do about a child, doesn't get you sacked. It gets you information that enables you to provide for that child the stability that ensures behaviours don't swing to the extent you NEED to call in external professionals and do hours of paperwork.

Not admitting a child isn't 'coping well' when a parent asks about a specific situation they know their child wouldn't cope well with, and didn't, means a)the parent becomes suspicious and b)they are prevented from seeking further support for their child either outside of school or through the channels available to them through the SEN system.

Hiding or losing home-school books, falsifying attainment levels, encouraging unofficial exclusions, getting a TA to babysit, are all techniques that teachers use to cover up the fact that a child's needs aren't being met. And it happens almost as standard if you were to read the SN boards.

The situation is worse than I thought. It really confirms my theory that the final stages of a PGCE involves a lobotomy and senior managers have a second lobotomy. Clearly the lobotomy is often of through enough as lots of teachers leave within the first 5 years of teaching.

I feel we need to make schools happier places where teachers can admit they need more support without fear of competency proceedings. I want teachers to be able to sleep at night and enjoy life.

I agree with everything letseatgrandma said.

It's not a lobotomy. The idealism of teaching gets worn down by the reality of politics and data.

Star, actually, now I think about it, in my one -to -ones I do do more as you would like. There is an understanding that I am not given information by the school about the children I work with one to one. My job, if you like, is to have no preconceptions. Music, as you know, means a lot to many parents and they do tend to confide in me. So my information comes first from child, then from parents, and a bit from TAs.
My work is also kept separate from the school's official reward and punishment schemes. That was very important in one situation.
Thinking about it (and about you as I remember you) my job is, if you like, to allow the child to be something different from what the classroom makes them.
It is a delicate balance.

Talking to you brings back so many memories... Need to think but will post about our kids in a bit

Lingle xx