To think parents need to actually understand the school's application process before applying?

[evertonmint]

So we've just received school places. I've had 2 going through the system this year and live edge of catchment so it's been stressful. We were lucky to get what we wanted, as most people around here did fortunately, but I also made damn sure I understood the process, and understood what to do if we didn't get our choice, so that my application was as solid as it could be.

I feel incredibly sorry for people who haven't got any of their choices, who live in crap areas with huge competition. We could well have missed out but just managed to scrape in.

But I've been shocked at how clueless people are about the process, or deliberately disingenuous they are about the reasons why they've not got what they wanted. For example,

1. somebody complaining on a local Facebook group that the council's letter says they live 5 miles from the school when she can see the gates from her house. Loads of "that's terrible!" comments. She then later drops into conversation that she only moved to the village 2 weeks ago!

2. someone who didn't tick the sibling link box as she didn't know there was one so has been treated as catchment only and not got a place for her second child

3. people who think the process is unfair because the school isn't near affordable housing so it's unfair on poorer people (even though this is not actually true - housing is very mixed here)

4. several people who spent ages stressing that they wouldn't have a place even though they have a sibling there and are closer than most people in the school catchment so were virtually guaranteed a spot

5. person putting home schooling as second and only other choice to force the school to take their child. Child doesn't get a place, no place offered as parent expressed wish to home school. Parent now upset they have to home school and talking to their MP about it...

I've heard all sorts recently, and I'm just shocked that so many people don't appear to have read the criteria, or rely on what their auntie did 15 years ago, or are deliberately holding back a critical bit of info when trying to garner sympathy.

I have loads of sympathy for the children affected by this, but their parents in some cases have brought this on themselves and I just don't understand how you can be that lax when your child's schooling is at stake. This is not an education thing - several of the people mentioned here have degrees for example, several of the people who did it all right don't. AIBU, cynical, unfair? Or do I have a point?

You have a point, they need to understand how the system works.

Thankfully we left the UK before our DC were school age, I don't know how we would have gotten through the process!

Where we live, if you live in the catchment, your child goes to the school end of. No worrying about getting into it, or panicking about not having a school place. On the other hand, the school is at 130% capacity, and they've added portacabins on the playing fields, but have kept class sizes at 20/22 which is fantastic! When we register for the next year, we have to PROVE our address again, so if we've moved, we HAVE to move schools.

The UK, IMO really needs to overall the whole school placement system.

In general I agree with you, but

3. The process does unfairly benefit people who can afford to move to catchment of a good school, and housing near a good school will be more expensive than elsewhere.

4. they may have no reason to fret, but they are not guaranteed a place if there were many SEN, looked-after children and other siblings in a particular year group. Having siblings in different schools would be v stressful. I appreciate it must be annoying if they are in a relatively stronger position than you, but they have a point.

I completely agree on the process being unfair, particularly in some areas, eg London (have a friend who didn't get any of 6 choices which is unbelievable!)

My issue is more about people who don't even take the time to understand the system as it is and then feel affronted when it hasn't worked out for them, or stress vocally and often when they are way more advantaged than the people they're talking to and they all want sympathy!

I won't have to do this for a few years yet, but may I ask a question, as when the time comes I do want to be informed. if you are in the school catchment area does it matter where abouts in the catchment area you are, so if people are closer but you are still in the catchment does the person who is closer get more chance of a place?

I agree that people should. I would also assert that the children most in need of good school places are least likely to have parents well-versed in the process.

I've been in discussions round these here parts for some days and I don't see the solution. People will always trust next-door neighbours or Auntie Joyce over the council, particularly if they think they've found a way to cheat the system.

The work MNers do on MN to dispel myths and publicise the process, so that at least a few people change their plans to sensible plans, is invaluable. How can that be spread more widely?

I get what you're saying I think.

It's taking me a gargantuan effort not to shout at someone I know "be fucking realistic you dozy bugger" as we only get four choices here and they didn't get any of the four they picked but to my mind they should have picked three they really wanted and a fourth strong fall back option. Anyway they've been allocated a place at a really dire school (and i don't say that lightly - I'm a supporter of comprehensive education, but this has got to be the worst school in the borough and I'd imagine one of the worst nationally) but a decent comp nearer to them still has spaces but they wont even look at it as they're "on the waiting list" for the schools they didn't get. Which are massively oversubscribed. And they meet hardly any of the criteria. They just seem oblivious to the reality of their situation.

Sadly, it appears that around education admission (both schools and, God help us, the nonsense some parents spout about university admission), the Dunning-Krueger effect is at its absolute peak. People who are wrong are absolutely certain in their wrongness, and far prefer the chorus of agreement from other people who don't know to all those pesky facts.

I know a few people who only put one choice, on the understanding that the school would then have to take them. And then were surprised when they were allocated a school in the arse end of nowhere.

Blue yes all things being equal. However siblings , being Catholic etc also affect places.

BlueBee - within each band (eg LAC, siblings in catchment, etc) the applications are ranked by distance from school. Some LAs measure as the crow flies, others by assumed walking routes. Check this.

But yes, someone in catchment 100m away is higher up the list than someone in catchment 300m away, all other things being equal.

In cases of a tie, other published criteria may be used (eg lower flat numbers have priority over higher, or earlier in the alphabet has priority over later).

They just seem oblivious to the reality of their situation.

I live in a super-selective 11+ city.

The politics of that aside, a staggering common situation is as follows:

1. Child takes 11+, and does reasonably well.

1. Parents also go to open day of decent local comp, and hear the phrase "you need to put us first to be sure of a place".

1. Parent fills in form, comp first, grammar second.

1. Child is allocated to comp, as you'd expect. Score on 11+ was higher than last child admitted. Yelling ensues.

Or alternatively:

1. Child takes 11+, and does not terribly well.

1. Parents think "well, he might get into one of them", so fill the form up with grammars, even though there's a good comp at the end of the road.

1. Child is allocated to sink comp in the arse end of the universe. Yelling ensues.

Both arise from an utter misunderstanding of the equal-preference system.

MrsH - my experience is that it's all sorts of parents doing this, middle class professionals included. Plus this is a large village with one school and roughly enough places for all kids to go, not hugely tricky to get kids in unless you're edge of catchment where you may get bumped, yet people are getting it wrong. I can understand it being much harder in say London to work out what to do (part of the reason we left is because school apps there terrified me) but it's really not that difficult here.

I do wonder how the information can be more broadly disseminated and made understandable as it would free up school and council time to deal with the genuine problems if people were assisted to get their apps right first time.

I thought I might get a roasting! I'm relieved people understand what I'm saying. The system can be shit, but most parents try to understand it and do all they can to mitigate the chances of something going wrong. So why are some otherwise supportive, reasonably bright parents incapable of doing that and then shocked when it goes pear-shaped?

It should be the case that absolutely anyone correctly applying the published criteria for a school against its applicants will rank them in exactly the same order every time. There is no judgement call involved, just quantifiable variables - statement yes or no, LAC yes or no, qualifying sibling yes or no, within catchment/priority boundary yes or no, distance from front door to school door x metres - which the computer applies dispassionately.

The number of people who think the comments field can be filled with heartrending personal stories to sway things is frightening. The computer doesn't give a toss that you went to the school, or you really like the outdoor classroom, or it's near his grandma's house.

I am constantly shocked at how many educated people I know don't read up on how it all works then get caught out. There is no excuse in our LA as they send out a very detailed idiot proof guide - but clearly some don't read it. That's why people persist in putting down unrealistic choices and end up with a school they don't want. SIGH

Yep my SIL wrote an essay on each child, including their sporting prowess and piano skills, for her in-year apps when moving house. Needless to say, they just got bunged on the waiting list in the right place despite her best (pointless) efforts. We told her it wouldn't help and I even directed her here for advice, but she thought it would make a difference!

I think they can only tell you the criteria for the last admitted child - eg 6 (distance) 437m. The data protection implications of giving you anything more than that would be hideous.

Some people read the myth busting published by the LA and think "they're trying to put me off the scent of the loopholes. I'll show them!"

In fairness, there exist government organisations which deliberately hide useful information until you ask for it eg Jobcentres withholding information about benefits entitlements so I can see why a person could distrust authority.

What's the comments filed actually for then? I'd assumed it would be looked at in a tie break situation or something, otherwise what's the point. As you are asked to fill it in, it's not unnatural to assume it might have some bearing!

bluebee one confusing thing is that a school can be at the edge of it's own catchment rather than in the centre. At least I find that confusing! So although we live one street away from our school there is only another street behind us in catchment, & the area extends much further on the other side of the school.

I have a colleague whose daughter is in specialist provision at nursery. Put 3 schools not catchment, a sink school then the school she is currently at the provision in. She got the sink school, now appealing for the specialist provision. I hope she gets in so her needs are met but really?

Thank you for the info MrsH I'm only just in our local primary catchment area you see so I'll be scrutinising the rules when it comes to my turn to apply then!