To think parents need to actually understand the school's application process before applying?

[evertonmint]

So we've just received school places. I've had 2 going through the system this year and live edge of catchment so it's been stressful. We were lucky to get what we wanted, as most people around here did fortunately, but I also made damn sure I understood the process, and understood what to do if we didn't get our choice, so that my application was as solid as it could be.

I feel incredibly sorry for people who haven't got any of their choices, who live in crap areas with huge competition. We could well have missed out but just managed to scrape in.

But I've been shocked at how clueless people are about the process, or deliberately disingenuous they are about the reasons why they've not got what they wanted. For example,

1. somebody complaining on a local Facebook group that the council's letter says they live 5 miles from the school when she can see the gates from her house. Loads of "that's terrible!" comments. She then later drops into conversation that she only moved to the village 2 weeks ago!

2. someone who didn't tick the sibling link box as she didn't know there was one so has been treated as catchment only and not got a place for her second child

3. people who think the process is unfair because the school isn't near affordable housing so it's unfair on poorer people (even though this is not actually true - housing is very mixed here)

4. several people who spent ages stressing that they wouldn't have a place even though they have a sibling there and are closer than most people in the school catchment so were virtually guaranteed a spot

5. person putting home schooling as second and only other choice to force the school to take their child. Child doesn't get a place, no place offered as parent expressed wish to home school. Parent now upset they have to home school and talking to their MP about it...

I've heard all sorts recently, and I'm just shocked that so many people don't appear to have read the criteria, or rely on what their auntie did 15 years ago, or are deliberately holding back a critical bit of info when trying to garner sympathy.

I have loads of sympathy for the children affected by this, but their parents in some cases have brought this on themselves and I just don't understand how you can be that lax when your child's schooling is at stake. This is not an education thing - several of the people mentioned here have degrees for example, several of the people who did it all right don't. AIBU, cynical, unfair? Or do I have a point?

Legs - I think for infants very few people do win an appeal as there is an absolute cap of 30 per class which they can only go over if they handled the application incorrectly. You aren't going to win because you didn't get the school you wanted, or forgot to tick the sibling box, or moved into the areas late in the process, or changed your mind.

It's a bit easier for juniors or high school because I think they then look at the balance of prejudice against child for admitting vs impact on school etc, as there is no 30 rule in the same way.

Misti - my point is that most people get it right, so the instructions clearly work for most people. So why are their idiots around who don't bother to read it and think they or their mate's brother's mother-in-law who was a school secretary in 1972 know best? The only people they're hurting through their idiocy are their children,! And then to add insult to injury they don't say "damn! It's my own fault. I should have been more clues up", but get upset on their friends, chuck their problem
At their councillor or MO to sort out and then tell the world that their little cherub didn't get in because the system is at fault, even though the system worked fine based on the information given to them.

Lots of people here now think the system is broken when actually several of the main problems being discussed by all and sundry are the fault of the parents, not the system.

But the London system really is broken, that I know.

It's a couple of years since I did London admissions, admittedly, but I wouldn't have called it broken.

It's fairly straightforward, in care/Sen, siblings, distance as the crow flies. Faith schools add in a religious category.

Most boroughs publish an exhaustive brochure, giving distances, categories, applicants, admissions policy.

The issue is not the admissions system, it's that families are increasingly staying in London, so schools are becoming vastly oversubscribed and there's not enough places.

I'm about to embark on secondary. I live about 800m from two schools is be more than happy with, but both schools only take about 90/year, and with the housing density there's just too many children. So it's unlikely we'll get a place at either.

I don't think the London system is broken - I had to use it as it is now combined with Surrey! It's just that there aren't enough school places at all...

Brings back memories, mine started school a loooong time ago. I think HT had a lot more say back then. We lived sort of in the midde of the catchments for 3 schools, just before my son started school they built a new school, one form entry and lovely little school, it was very close to us and was for us "in the middle" people. Looking at children who lived within a few houses of us they went to five different school, one family to each of three local schools and two Catholic families who again were on the border of the two Catholic schools so one family got a place in one school and the other family got the other school.

We decided to go for the new school, which had a tiny catchment area and by no means certain we would get in. Well locally the HT was renowned as a bit of a ladies man and the school was reckoned to have the youngest, most attractive mums, so I was advised to put on my make up, make sure my hair was done, wear a nice dress (minis in fashion so make it nice and short.) He was charming when I was shown round. I got a phone call offering me a place. Did my ego no end of good but a funny way to get a place. I suppose it as random as any other system really. A friend wanted to get her child into a very popular school which always had the best 11 plus results in the city. She went to view it and HT said she had little chance of a place. Her husband went for a look round, old Etonian, very nicely spoken, smart and obviously successful, the Head shook his hand and assured him a place, which he did get. Ah the good old day.

Having all the kids at different schools had its advantages, no playground arguments brought home, no mums competing.

So if there are not enough places over all - what happens to the unlucky children. Surely they have to be allocated a place somewhere??

Yes, by saying London was broken I was probably thinking more about lack of places than the applications system. When people can list 6 primary schools and get none of them (as just happened to a friend of mine) then something is broken somewhere. And if that's the reality, then it's incredibly important that parents understand the system and how it workstation than just making up their own approach.

Bulge classes, or transported into other boroughs that do have space.

The fact there aren't enough places is what makes London admissions broken. It isn't the criteria. I think if you lived in a street where you are not in the qualifying distance for any school at all and get no offers on offer day you would disagree that the system was broken.

Workstation? Just "works", obviously! My posts on this thread are littered with typos which is very unlike me, and I do apologise!

Depends which 6 they pick though. If they've picked the 6 closest, then yes. But ime (and the point of this thread) people pick the 6 best, or the 6 they want their kids to go to, without regard to admissions policy.

I have about 10 primaries within walking distance. I could easily put down the 6 highest ofsted ranked, but I wouldn't get a place at any.

i was talking to someone who is in a similar situation. Their kid hadn't got any of their secondary choices. They were saying that primary x must be a feeder school, as lots had got in from there. Also child b had got in over their child, and she wasn't as academic, so grounds for appeal.

School x is physically closer, so the kids will live physically closer and be higher up the list. The school operates a banding system (so takes 20% from each academic band). Child b was simply in a different band.

What is a bulge class? I've seen it mentioned before on school threads but am not sure what it means - just a bigger class size?

A bulge class is an exceptional 1 off extra class in a school when there are not enough school places in the local area one year. e.g. A 2 form entry taking 90 reception children rather than 60. It can have implications 2 or 3 years down the line when there are even more siblings than usual applying for a place.

The post from the LA person who said only 20 percent download the booklet is very telling. In our LA they send them out to every child they know about

Bulge classes sound like a good idea but I can see they may cause problems in later years.
We're not affected but nearby there is a huge newish housing development. Three primary schools planned - but the council then allowed one site to be re-allocated to more housing. Now there is a shortage of school places. Surely if you allow building of family homes you expect families to more into them - with their kids! Idiots.

More = move

DDs school had four consecutive bulge class years, she's in one, then last year it dropped back to a thirty children intake, and chaos was unleashed when forty siblings applied for thirty places.
Not one of the ten siblings without places got in on appeal, which was fairly predictable as the school couldn't increase the class size and couldn't create another bulge year because the excess traffic caused by the previous bulge years had caused so many problems the local residents got a stop put on the school getting any larger.
This year there were enough places for all the siblings, but only a couple for new families, and I suspect that will be the case for several years to come. Bulge years are at best a temporary solution to a growing problem, and at worse cause overcrowded schools, as DDs is now, and issues with sibling priority for the future.

They need to take the religious affiliation out of the state system, particularly in London where religion is used to discriminate against the poor and/or people of the 'wrong' ethnic minority.

I'm getting a little concerned. DS1 starts school next year and we've just moved to a new build estate which doesn't fall within catchment for ANY primary schools at all.

God knows where they'll choose to shove him.

Isn't the easy answer to drop preferences. Allocate on distance till schools are full then the authority will allocate the " no mans land children" after that?

Then you get a local school place, but can go on the wait list for the one you'd rather they attended and schools could set criteria for in year admissions themselves along the lines of " we have a wait list but if a child come who lives nearest they get the place"...

Or the scottish " catchment school is your school" with authorities being forced to make enough places in the schools when they have set a catchment.

Thats how it was when I went to school.... I remember the heart break of friends from the other estate going to the other secondary but we survived

They need to take the religious affiliation out of the state system, particularly in London where religion is used to discriminate against the poor and/or people of the 'wrong' ethnic minority.

What's the "wrong" ethnic minority then?

We are in inner London. Dc are in catholic school. Dc1 is one of two white British children in her class. 70% African/Caribbean heritage, the rest mainly Polish/Russian/other European.

There is no discrimination on race or wealth. It is simply a form that the priest signs to confirm attendance, nothing more, and regular worshipper a get a higher priority.

Schools that bend rules, and I do realise there are schools that do this, should be made to stick to the admissions process.

Well in your case newname, it's a convenient way of making sure your children don't go to school with any Muslims or Jews so of course that's discriminatory! I'm not saying that's why you chose the school incidentally. And FTR I don't have any beef with Catholicism over any other religion. It's simply wrong that children whose parents subscribe to one religion over another (or any at all) get a greater choice when school places are so squeezed. Whether that be a Jewish, CofE, Catholic or any other religious school.

Re my point on wealth, some schools not only prioritise on attendance at the religious institution but also on how much parents donate to said religious institution.

but the other argument would be remove Catholic/religious funding, (because, let's face it, the Catholic Church is very, very rich) schools close and you have fewer places...

And it doesn't ensure kids don't go to school with Muslims or Jews. There are other religions in dc school, because other faiths are also prioritised over no faith.