To think parents need to actually understand the school's application process before applying?

[evertonmint]

So we've just received school places. I've had 2 going through the system this year and live edge of catchment so it's been stressful. We were lucky to get what we wanted, as most people around here did fortunately, but I also made damn sure I understood the process, and understood what to do if we didn't get our choice, so that my application was as solid as it could be.

I feel incredibly sorry for people who haven't got any of their choices, who live in crap areas with huge competition. We could well have missed out but just managed to scrape in.

But I've been shocked at how clueless people are about the process, or deliberately disingenuous they are about the reasons why they've not got what they wanted. For example,

1. somebody complaining on a local Facebook group that the council's letter says they live 5 miles from the school when she can see the gates from her house. Loads of "that's terrible!" comments. She then later drops into conversation that she only moved to the village 2 weeks ago!

2. someone who didn't tick the sibling link box as she didn't know there was one so has been treated as catchment only and not got a place for her second child

3. people who think the process is unfair because the school isn't near affordable housing so it's unfair on poorer people (even though this is not actually true - housing is very mixed here)

4. several people who spent ages stressing that they wouldn't have a place even though they have a sibling there and are closer than most people in the school catchment so were virtually guaranteed a spot

5. person putting home schooling as second and only other choice to force the school to take their child. Child doesn't get a place, no place offered as parent expressed wish to home school. Parent now upset they have to home school and talking to their MP about it...

I've heard all sorts recently, and I'm just shocked that so many people don't appear to have read the criteria, or rely on what their auntie did 15 years ago, or are deliberately holding back a critical bit of info when trying to garner sympathy.

I have loads of sympathy for the children affected by this, but their parents in some cases have brought this on themselves and I just don't understand how you can be that lax when your child's schooling is at stake. This is not an education thing - several of the people mentioned here have degrees for example, several of the people who did it all right don't. AIBU, cynical, unfair? Or do I have a point?

Great, the Catholic church can pay for your children to be educated then. But they shouldn't get a state subsidy to do so.

In my area, the Catholic school is far more ethnically diverse (albeit not religiously necessarily) than any of the surrounding schools because the distance you live from the school is less important than your religious attendance.

And we are in a fairly wealthy area so by taking from a wider area, the Catholic school may also be more socially diverse (in terms of wealth), although I don't know if that is the case of course.

If the Catholic Church took back its real estate, then the state system would be somewhat stuffed.

With the exception of the handful of VA schools opened since the Blair government, those schools predated the state system and the government does not own the land or buildings. If CofE took its real estate back, the state school system would collapse.

I'm not sure either church would relinquish their opportunity to influence.

It's wrong and it's divisive, however much they prop up church attendance or our state education system.

An Admissions Officer at a secondary school told us at an Open Evening that if we filled in the form in the info pack and handed it in there and then DS was guaranteed a place in that school. When I raised the question of LEA allocation she said "the LEA don't have anything to do with it, the Diocese chooses which applicants get in".

I didn't bother arguing with her about it - it was the last straw in a long line of iffy straws from that Open Evening, but with misinformation like that being given to parents by the people whose job it is to know and administer the applications process at the school it's no wonder some think that school applications are still about a friendly nod and handshake from the school staff.

Was that an academy though, Pru?

No, Catholic secondary, Atomic. Not an oversubscribed one, but rising in popularity. We made it quite clear that we were not applying under Faith criteria and 'living in the Parish' is as close as we would get on the supplementary Faith form. She still said if we filled in that form on the night it would be taken as an expression of interest and DS would get in. I know that he'd have got in under catchment as they don't have enough applicants applying under criteria further up the list (if we'd put it first) but she definitely stated that the school administered its own admissions, which is simply not true.

If I didn't know about admissions and had filled in the form and put it first in the list then I'd be under the impression that the system was run by the school, when the truth is there aren't enough applicants from the Catholic faith, so the catchment is fairly large (covering over 20 primaries, Catholic, C of E and non denominational). Other (better) Catholic secondaries in the area you might as well not bother applying if you are not Catholic and haven't gone to one of the feeder primaries.

I didn't appreciate being lied to by a senior member of staff at a secondary about something so fundamental as admissions.

Oddfodd you can say that until the cows come home it still doesn't make it necessarily true. It also doesn't address the issue regarding ownership of the land a lot of faith schools are on. Faith schools have been around since before state only schools yet this issue with school places has only seemed to be a issue since the invention of league tables and ofsted gradings along with the supposed choice parents were told they had. It has been stated several times by experts on school admissions that faith schools are not the cause of the shortage of school places but that still doesn't make a difference to those determined to blame them for every little problem with the state system.

I agree that many parents don't bother to understand the system, often accepting poor advice from other parents rather than listening to those who actually know how the system works. Many people like to believe that they have found a way to beat the system.

Of course, everyone likes to believe they (and their children) are special. Time and again I have to advise people that their appeal case is not special at all and has little chance of success. A classic example was a parent who contacted me via PM. Their child had been allocated a place at a faith school but they were of a different faith. They wanted to appeal on that basis and were adamant that this was a breach of their human rights. It became apparent that they really weren't interested in my advice when I told them that theirs was a bog standard appeal with no chance of success and the human rights arguments would not get them anywhere even if they took it to court. All I got after that where long, and increasingly insulting, essays explaining why they were right and I was wrong.

The thing that really annoys me, though, is the number of schools that give false information to parents. The fact that many do so year after year, even when the error of their ways has been pointed out to them, makes me think that it is deliberate. The most common examples are, "You won't get a place in this school unless you make it your first choice" and, "If you make this school your first choice you are guaranteed a place". Both lines are clearly designed to make sure that the school is full (and hence receives maximum funding) even though they may be advising parents to act against their own (or their children's) best interests.

I don't understand why the Additional Information section of the application form is there. It's made quite clear that it's not for Medical/Social etc reasons and any Faith element has its own form. The info you put there isn't supposed to have any weight when the LEA allocate a school, so what's it for?
I did write things in it, just in case!

Faith schools might not be the cause of the school place crisis, buffyp, but it doesn't mean that they aren't divisive and aren't preventing people from getting a school place near their house.

Why should the children in my road be at the bottom of every schools criteria and essentially sent wherever they have places because our catchment school offers places to just about everybody else first? If they were following the c of e's own guidance about restricting the number of faith places offered they would stand a chance of getting in because we are only 0.1miles away.

Oh, I see! Thank you, tiggytape, I didn't know the LA would scan that section to pick up on missed criteria.

I don't recall seeing that explained anywhere in the admissions info. I think it does lead some parents to believe they can sway the allocation to their first choice. We didn't fill in a supplementary Faith form, so perhaps they picked up the 'living in X Parish' which does come under the criteria very low down the list.

This was mentioned on another thread, but it's a valid point imo. If you live near a single sex school and your DC aren't that sex then that school is closed to you as a choice. Oversubscribed faith schools of a faith you don't share or can't demonstrate commitment to by church attendance are similarly closed to you as a choice.

It tends not to be a problem if they aren't oversubscribed, but when they are the default is going to be the faith element.

The "if I only put one preference down they will have to give me that," myth seems quite common. I know someone who got caught out despite the head for our desired school specifically warning parents not to try and game the system and telling them the consequences - you get the place left at the end of the process.

They need to use the term "preference" not "choice." Choice implies that you have one and the reality is that you don't.

Why would anyone put a child into a faith school of a faith they don't share?

DuelingFanjo - because they tend to get better results and there are fewer children who receive FSM and with SEN in faith schools.

Some parents would prefer their PFBs to be separated from the undesirables.

There are very few single sex primary schools though. And I'd imagine that if the catchment primary was single sex, there would be a second school in the catchment of the opposite gender, or a mixed gender one. I'm not aware of any areas where the nearest 5 of 6 schools are all of one sex with no schools of the opposite sex. I don't think that analogy works very well.

Because it's good, Dueling?

DuelingFanjo - my Jewish DSSs went to a Catholic school, having previously been at a secular state school. The motivation was a smaller, selective school and better standards across the board.

DSS2 did his Bar Mirzvah 4 weeks after moving to the Catholic school. And invited all his new friends!

When the Sunday Times stated that people were shocked that David Cameron's daughter got her second choice school which was so over-subscribed only those who put it down as their first choice would normally get it, it's hardly surprising that many people fail to understand the equal preference rule.

But it's a bit annoying when someone at the school gate loudly proclaims that they got x school because they wrote it down four times on the application form, so the council simply had to give it to them.

Those schools may as well not be there for you, Rafa. They are not your 'local' school or your 'nearest' school, they are the nearest Faith school and if Faith criteria is used above distance and they are oversubscribed then they may as well not exist.