To think parents need to actually understand the school's application process before applying?

[evertonmint]

So we've just received school places. I've had 2 going through the system this year and live edge of catchment so it's been stressful. We were lucky to get what we wanted, as most people around here did fortunately, but I also made damn sure I understood the process, and understood what to do if we didn't get our choice, so that my application was as solid as it could be.

I feel incredibly sorry for people who haven't got any of their choices, who live in crap areas with huge competition. We could well have missed out but just managed to scrape in.

But I've been shocked at how clueless people are about the process, or deliberately disingenuous they are about the reasons why they've not got what they wanted. For example,

1. somebody complaining on a local Facebook group that the council's letter says they live 5 miles from the school when she can see the gates from her house. Loads of "that's terrible!" comments. She then later drops into conversation that she only moved to the village 2 weeks ago!

2. someone who didn't tick the sibling link box as she didn't know there was one so has been treated as catchment only and not got a place for her second child

3. people who think the process is unfair because the school isn't near affordable housing so it's unfair on poorer people (even though this is not actually true - housing is very mixed here)

4. several people who spent ages stressing that they wouldn't have a place even though they have a sibling there and are closer than most people in the school catchment so were virtually guaranteed a spot

5. person putting home schooling as second and only other choice to force the school to take their child. Child doesn't get a place, no place offered as parent expressed wish to home school. Parent now upset they have to home school and talking to their MP about it...

I've heard all sorts recently, and I'm just shocked that so many people don't appear to have read the criteria, or rely on what their auntie did 15 years ago, or are deliberately holding back a critical bit of info when trying to garner sympathy.

I have loads of sympathy for the children affected by this, but their parents in some cases have brought this on themselves and I just don't understand how you can be that lax when your child's schooling is at stake. This is not an education thing - several of the people mentioned here have degrees for example, several of the people who did it all right don't. AIBU, cynical, unfair? Or do I have a point?

itsallkickingoffpru

but she definitely stated that the school administered its own admissions, which is simply not true.

My children are at a Catholic school and this is absolutely the case there. It's oversubscribed and the Supplemrntary Form signed by the priest is essential. The school is very culturally diverse (South and Eastern European, South Asian, East African and Irish) but narrow from a faith point of view.
The school absolutely administers its own admissions against a clearly documented policy. If you put it as a preference and attach the priest's form, then you get a place and anyone without the form then gets bumped down the categories. If you have a child there and apply for a sibling, but don't have a signed priest's form then they may not get in as any applicant with a priest's form has priority. So basically the Catholuc school gets first cut of the applicants, they take the ones with the form and everyone else goes back into the pot.

The appeals process is to the governor's and then the archdiocese, NOT the LEA.

And the church own 100% of the land and buildings, and charge the school a levy of 10% for upkeep, which the school has to find through fundraising. In that regard the school is funded worse than its neighbours as they're effectively 10% down before they start. But it makes for a very active PTA.

evertonmint we don't have any fixed catchments so it is purely done on distance from school - as crow flies in all directions. The siblings get priority up to 2 miles away, if they live further than 2 miles unless the older sibling was also living there when their place was offered then they loose the priority. In that way if a family move away then they need to still be fairly close to the school. If a family were allocated the school because it was the nearest one with spaces for the oldest then they can stay.

Where I live catchment children are high priority with only in care being higher.

I'd like to see the school admission black spots in areas which don't have catchments addressed. I think those schools should be required to prioritise children for whom the school is the nearest one over those who live nearer to another school.

There are black holes in London, and it is very difficult for families on those areas. But the stats show that the vast majority get a school in their top 3 preferences.

Because in London you get 6 preferences a lot of people use the first few places as 'wild cards' - the outstanding school the other side of the borough. Some people list 6 schools they have little chance of, and do not list their 2 closest schools.

I know people who put down 6 wild cards and then protested from the rooftops about 'the system'.

There seems to be so much emphasis on reputation and getting the one school that everyone else wants, and less on looking at what is actually on offer in the less fashionable school next door.

Saltybutterandjam, the staff member knew neither of us are Catholic (I am C of E, DH is staunchly atheist), so the supplementary faith form could not be signed by the Priest, or indeed the C of E Vicar, placing the application firmly in the lower categories. She still maintained that filling in the form and handing it in on the Open Evening would guarantee a place at the school.
The only relevant point was that by placing the school first in the preference list we were likely to get a place as a) we are in catchment and b) the school does not attract so many Catholic applicants that non-Catholics don't stand a chance of getting in.
She would be aware of this, as Admissions Officer, but misinformed us as to what weight the supplementary form has for non-Catholic, non-Church attending families (i.e. no weight at all).

On the subject of putting names down is that the same for school nurseries?

Pru "She still maintained that filling in the form and handing it in on the Open Evening would guarantee a place at the school."

Tbh she's still pretty much right as the faith schools select the ones they want first. So in your case, your application without a priest's form but with an expression of interest form, could be pulled out by the school and you get your place.

It's bizarre but true. The other thing they dont make clear is that the governance at Catholic schools is different. So say you're unhappy with a governor at a state school - you can complain via the LEA. At a Catholic one, the hierarchy is entirely different and the governor's are appointed by the Diocese so your only recourse is to the education office at the diocese and the Bishop. one of our governors is a disgrace but we can't remove her as the Bishop himself put her there.

Where I live, in North London, the system completely changed from when my older 2 DC were moving from primary to secondary, and when we were applying for the youngest.

I found it quite difficult to get my head round the new system - which is actually far less of a lottery than the old system.

The problem we have here is a rapidly increasing population and a shortage of school places. Every year there are some children who haven't got a place anywhere - which must be absolutely horrid for those kids.

When you consider that we are awash with private schools that are all full of local rich kids, I dread to think what would happen if everyone wanted a state school place.

I found university application (2 older DC) much easier and less stressful than secondary school application TBH. I was fantastically lucky that my Dc all got places in "good - ish" state schools. Plenty of people were not so fortunate.

The sibling rule at older Dc school only applies if the older sibling is currently a pupil up to and including year 11. Sixth form doesn't count.

I had a big age gap, so essentially youngest DD might as well have been an only child because of the above rule. So youngest DC did not go to same school as older DC.

Absolutely agree with sibling priority in primary school.

I said this on another thread but l dont think Ofsted should publish their results outside of current families attending. The Ofsted grading has made parents go silly regarding what school to send their DC.

We should all apply to our local and then go on waiting list for the next nearest.

And yes we got our 1st preference, which was the closest school with an Ofsted grading of needs improvement. My NDN got into the Outstanding school but it's going to be a nightmare for them to get dc to school when sahp returns to work.

I've just had a look at the current admissions criteria for that school. It must be on the up as there is no section for unbaptised DC living in the Parish now .

I get what you're saying saltybutterandjam, but it seems to run contrary to what others say about schools having to go through the LEA process after they've taken evidence of Church attendance and baptism into account. It's not that I don't believe you, it's just added a layer of confusion

Catholic schools over-subscribed in general here, youngest DC currently nursery applied for a place in the school two older DCs go to. We have just moved so we had a temporary address nearer the school when they moved...(think a couple of weeks whilst sale of house went through) and we have bought further away but well within catchment - this means we didn't have the council tax proof of address when applied for DC3. We still put school down for DC3 and no other. I didn't see this as risky because I had very carefully read the admissions policy, called the LEA to check and spoke in detail to the Head (it has some control over own admissions as faith). Of course DC3 got in. No drama here (despite the attempt by family and friends to create some...'will DC3 get in...you have no council tax form / you have only put 1 school down etc). Of course some didn't get in, and they are cross because they were under the impression a nursery place guaranteed a school place...er...no.
The rules are clear. Read them. Whether they are fair or not is a different matter.

No probs Pru. I find it extraordinary that there's different criteria from area to area, let alone school to school!