To have excluded this friend from our travel plans?

[HourOrTwo]

I'm going on a tiger-spotting safari holiday for 3 weeks with a close friend. Our other close friend just found out and is very upset we didn't invite her. For many years the 3 of us talked about going on a tiger safari together, but it was more a pipe-dream.

Reason we didn't invite her is she's been very unreliable the last couple of years. She often says she'll visit for weekend, arranges dates etc then at last minute says she can't afford it and backs out. She's always been hard up and for years I helped her out with money, e.g. paying for her train tickets, giving her money towards group trips, paying her share of meals out etc. I didn't mind back then as she was a student and i was working, but for the last 2 years she's had a full-time job. Nearly every time she's been due to visit, she phoned me the day before and said she couldn't afford the train fare, or she wanted to come but wouldn't have any money for taxi or going out. The first time I said come anyway, I sent her money for train, paid for everything etc. Second time I didn't offer to pay, she didn't ask, she said she couldn't come.

We've been friends since we were 8 years old, she's more like a sister than a friend, but I got fed-up of feeling used. A couple of times she'd claimed she had no money, she'd then go clothes shopping in front of me, or tell me about something she'd recently bought! Since I stopped offering to pay for her, she has stopped visiting altogether. I can't go to her as she lives in a shared house and I'd have to get a B+B, which is too much hassle and expense. I miss her and we talk on the phone often, and if she paid for herself at least sometimes I wouldn't mind helping her with travel costs at other times.

Anyway, she is furious and very hurt we are going on this holiday without her. I feel awful but its booked now. I pointed out she always says she can't afford train fares or meals out, so how would she have afforded this, but she says she would have saved up. AIBU?

'So if you have a friend who is less well off than you and they truthfully tell you that they can't afford to do it then they are guilt tripping you?'

I don't think she was being truthful about having no money, this is why I stopped paying eventually. She realised that if she waited until last minute to say 'I can't afford it after all' I would pay for her (to avoid our plans being cancelled). When she was a student I didn't mind helping her out, but once she had a full-time job I felt she was taking advantage.

 'It seems like because she is the wealthier party in this relationship she expects the friend to dance attendance on her at her beck and call.'

Let me explain a few things. When I went to uni, friend stayed on at college (living with her parents). We still met up regularly these 3 years, meeting in her area for days out when I went home to my parents, and her travelling to see me. During these years I often helped her out with train fares, meals and drinks out, whenever I could. Eg we would go to McDonalds, she would say (in pitiful whisper) 'I can't afford to buy anything but I'm really hungry' and I would either have to share my meal with her, or buy her a meal of her own.

When I finished uni and started working, she started uni. It was a 4 hour train journey to see her, approx £80 return. I paid for most of her train tickets for 2 years. This was still much cheaper than me visiting her (I would have had to pay an additional £150 for a B+B to visit her for few nights. She lives in a shared house with 7 people, so yes I could kip in her shared living room in a sleeping-bag, but I'm not comfortable doing this.) I didn't mind paying alternate train fares (I agree this was fair as she was doing all travelling) but she soon took it for granted I would pay every time. On top of this she never had any money to do anything when she arrived (unless it involved buying herself clothes or shoes which magically she DID have money for). I felt like she wanted an all-expenses-paid weekend away every time. And while we did lots of free stuff, sometimes it's nice to go out for a meal, or a drink in a pub... in my experience most people bring a bit of spare cash with them when they are a guest in someone's house.

The more things I paid for, the more resentful I felt. She never directly asked for money but put me (and others) in a position where either we had to pay for her, or we had to cancel plans at short notice. Eg we would plan to go to a concert together but when it came to ordering the tickets she would cry and say she couldn't afford to go after all, and I would feel sorry for her and get her a ticket. Or we would meet up, but then despite knowing the plan and having had time to save up, she would announce she couldn't afford the planned activity and would 'wait outside while you guys go in and have fun'. Eg plan was to go to zoo then meal in a cheap pub, but on day she had no money... we paid for her zoo ticket as well as meals and bus-fares to get there.
If this was occasional I wouldn't have minded, but it became so regular I felt used. I tried talking to her about it once but she cried, said she felt ashamed and humiliated and that I didn't have to pay. She gave me a sob-story about 'you don't know what its like to be poor' and said I had never been short of money so didn't understand. I pointed out I'd lived on a student loan for years (and worked in bars for extra money), she said it didn't count as I knew my parents would help me out if I needed them to. But if she was truly ashamed of us paying, why didn't she plan ahead so she could pay for herself?

Other examples include going to a wedding, she said she couldn't come as B+B was too expensive, could she share our room (me and other friend planned to book room) and sleep on floor for free? We agreed, and suggested we book family room with extra bed and she pay a smaller portion of cost. Friend said she could not pay anything at all but really wanted to come. So we booked a twin, she slept on floor and complained entire night about being uncomfortable (dropping hints about wanting to share my single bed!)
I also paid for her to come on 2 group weekend breaks, as she said she desperately wanted to come but couldn't afford it. Third time I helped her out by paying deposit (she agreed to pay full amount herself) then she realised she couldn't do those dates after all and I lost £60 deposit for her place. This was when I decided enough was enough.

TBH it was her attitude more than anything that annoyed me. She works full-time now but when I last saw her, we went for coffee and she queued while I looked for a table. She paid for the coffees, I gave her the money for mine, she counted the coins very carefully and then announced I was 20p short!!

I hope we stay friends, because I do care about her and she's great fun to be with. I just feel she needs to grow up and start paying for herself. She never takes responsibility for not having money, it's always someone else's fault or some crisis (e.g. her mum owed her money, or her salary hasn't come through, or she had to pay a big bill, or she's saving up for driving lessons/an extra study course/someone's birthday, or she didn't have time to go to bank to get cash out etc etc).

We hoped to keep the tiger-safari a secret from her, but she found out from another friend. I agree we should have told her, but we were both worried she would agree to come, then back out unless we paid. If she had managed to save money for the cost of trip (flights inclusive but not accommodation or food) chances are we would have had to help her out with hotel and food costs. And if we'd booked a hotel room to sleep 3 and she then backed out, we'd be left paying her share too.

Well it does sound as though she had used you now you've added more detail but I just don't understand why you kept paying for these things. She cried etc but being kind but firm would probably have dealt with it a lot better. But I can see that she did put you in a difficult position.

I still think you were in the wrong for the tiger safari though. Do you need to book rooms? I'd have thought that this is the sort of thing you book on and it's done for you by the operator but I might be wrong. If I am then I think it would have been perfectly fair to ask for all the money she would owe you up front, so it's only her that loses out if she pulls out.

I don't really see how you'll stay friends after this though.

Blimey YNABU at all. She sounds v manipulative.

Sounds exactly like my friend I mentioned before - would claim she can't afford stuff at the last minute, so either I paid or we would have to cancel. Plenty of money for her own shopping. Happy for me to pay for her things for years, never paying anything back, but when I had once forgotten my wallet and she bought me a cheap meal, was very quick to remind me that I need to pay her back.

I could understand if someone is actually skint, or unexpectedly had some expenses and now can't afford something. Does not sound like this though, and friends don't use friends like that. You say you care about her, but does she care about you, or see you as a cash-cow? I bet if you clearly tell her that you will not pay for her any more, ever, you might not hear from her that often..

She sounds like a massive user and I'd have dumped her sorry ass long ago.

Thank you for giving us further information, I have always agreed with you, this friend sounds highly manipulative, and quite userish, you sound very soft and have been for a long time with her. I don't blame you one bit for inviting her, you have included her on a number of days out, trip, her behaviour has been bad. She obviously has a form for this, and needs to understand the consequence of her actions. You and your friend will most certainly be subsidising her on that Safari holiday I bet you, you know she will not save that money up. If I genuinly could not afford to go anywhere, I would say sorry I cannot go, I would not go, and expect people to pay for me, which is what she has done.

for not inviting her, I meant to say.

Even if she paid for her hotel and flights for the tiger safari, I bet you, you and your friend would be paying her meals, excursions etc. best not get into that, I don't blame you for one bit. I think now your friendship has run its course, they do however long you have known the person, like relationships, it can happen. You would not put up with that from a partner, why would you tolerate that with a friend.

If you are both still communicating and you want to continue the friendship then maybe you need to share the contents of your latest post with her. To be honest I don't think the friendship will survive whatever you do now, she doesn't sound like the kind of person that would see any fault in her behaviour and will just turn it back on you.

The friend you are going with clearly feels the same as you, the relationship you had as a three is finished.

yanbu

i would tell her in no uncertain terms that you're tired of subsidising her and you can't afford to anymore. and certainly not on the holiday, hence why she's not invited.

she's a big user, but really, you should have stopped paying long ago.

Ignore the do gooders on here, I am sure they would feel the same, if they were in your position. She sounds like the type of person to say yes I will come, book the flights with you, then when you get there, tell you that she has not booked a hotel and can she stay in yours for free . She does not sound like much of a friend, mabey this is what you needed to end the friendship.

"taking the indirect flight with a 20 hour stopover in Buttfuckstan to save £70, dossing in some no star feral shithole and making your own pack lunches before you go (free) sightseeing" has just made me snort tea down my nose [grin} Thanks PanGalactic, needed that!

I have read your update OP, but I still think YHBabitU. Did you and your other friend just have the money sitting there to be able to book a 3 week tiger safari, or did you both have to do some saving first? If you've had to save for it, I think you should have spoken to your skint friend to tell her you were both starting to save up (maybe even giving her six months advance warning before you started to save), with the expectation of booking in x months, and travelling on x date or thereabouts.

At that point, I think you should have told her that she was more than welcome to come, but you would not be able to subsidise her in any way, shape or form. You could even have offered for her to set up a standing order to your bank account to help her to save (my friends and I have done this before now for big trips), with the condition that one missed payment meant that she would get her savings back but she wouldn't be coming on your booking.

I agree that she has been very manipulative in the past, but she should still have been given the opportunity to come on the holiday that you'd all dreamed of for years. It sounds as though, like a sister to you or not, you never wanted her to come at all.

I was about to say yabu but then I read your update with further information. I now think yanbu. Is it possible for you to speak to her about why you didn't invite her? There again that might upset her more.

Yes I would have a chat to her, and basically tell her what you have told us here. Apprentice, she could not even save up concert tickets, how could she save up a holiday costing several thousands. Op is well within her right not to include her in these current plans, things change, she has proved over time, that she is manipulative and quite a user, that has changed op view of her. Yes it is all very well op saying that she will not subsidise her, imagine the scenario that op friend has saved up for the flights, they get to the destination but she has failed to book a hotel, and has no money for excursions, and expects op and her friend to subsidise her. Op and friend can say no, but it ruins the whole holiday for them, and tarnishes it.

With a holiday like that, you want reliable people on board, op friend is not.

OP - I think you might have outgrown this friend. People grow up differently, and it seems she has different values to you and your other friend.

I think from what you have said you are right, it's likely she'd have pulled out at the last minute, leaving whoever had made the booking to make the final payment.... She might have done it delibrately, or she might well have had every intention of having the money then it just would 'go'.

If she "never has any money" she can't be surprised people assume she can't afford expensive things. She also can't expect others not to do expensive things without her that she can't afford.

It does, sadly sound more like she's a user, not just disorganised with money.

I can see where you're coming from Aeroflot but would have really been any skin off the OP's nose to have at least spoken to skint friend about it before booking a holiday that they'd all talked about wanting to go on? The OP could have made it very clear that there would be no lending, subsidising or treating, and even gone so far as to say that they were each booking separately, so skint friend would have been totally responsible for her own costs.

I understand that skint friend has been manipulative and has used the OP in the past, but if the OP was that bothered she should have called time on the friendship before now, then she wouldn't be in this situation. She can't really turn round at this point and say "well, you did x, y and z so that's why you weren't invited". Every time skint friend pissed her off, she should have had the discussion with her then and there, rather than letting it build up. If she's still classing the skint friend as a friend, then the skint friend should have been invited, with all the caveats, exceptions and conditions I gave in my previous post.

why can't she turn around and say 'enough is enough'? because you've let someone use you for so long doesn't mean that you have to let them continue.

at any point anyone is within their rights to say 'this no longer works for me.'

It's all very well talking about wanting to go somewhere but if she's talked about wanting to go to Africa but in fact can't afford to go a couple of stops on the bus, then there's not much point in thinking she might be able to go, is there?

The OP has paid and paid over the years for this woman, when the stakes have been much smaller. Now the OP wants to go further afield, this woman wants to go with her and the OP knows - not suspects, knows - that the woman will not pay her way. She's never paid her way.

So either she tells the woman about the trip, knowing she will have to subsidise it, or she keeps quiet. I know what I would have done.

it may well be distressing to the friend in question but she hasn't been bothered about taking op like a mug for years.

But the op has enabled her to do so. If she had put her foot down sooner, then the friend would have got the idea that she can't rely on her friend to bail her out.

If you are giving it, most people will take it. Money, time, material goods etc.

Whilst I totally understand you not wanting to finance her any longer, I dintbthink it's fair you saying that you won't go to her as it's too expensive and too much trouble. Certainly not fair expecting her to always have the expense of coming to you. That stuck out for me too. I was always the one to go a friends house & it really annoyed me that she couldn't make the effort to come to me.

Seriously, does no one else think it is taking the piss to expect someone to visit EVERY TIME and not share the travelling? B&Bs can be dirt cheap at certain times of year, and op says it is 'too much hassle' nice... not to mention when friends did house shares, they always managed to find a space for some one to bunk down...usually sharing bed/giving friend bed & sleeping on sofa etc. It isn't too hard if you really want to visit with someone.

IMO it's U to let friends pay for you for years, never pay them back, then expect to be invited on a luxury holiday Its also unfair when your 'friend' expect you to be the only who travels for meet ups etc.

It's interesting because the OP didn't say 'I will get the train to you', she said 'I will pay your train fare'. It was for her convenience. It seems like because she is the wealthier party in this relationship she expects the friend to dance attendance on her at her beck and call. Do you think perhaps she said she couldn't afford the train fare to perhaps prompt her friend into making the effort to get the train herself? YY!! Very one sided wrt travel.

Well, the flip side of that Doc, is would the other 2 never be able to go on their dream holiday either, if they were forever waiting for their 3rd friend be able to afford it Bollocks! No one is advocating they wait for her to be able to afford it, they are suggesting that op & her other say "we have decided to book the holiday we all talked about. We have done some sums & it costs xxx, we thought we would go on x date! Please say you can come! We understand if you cannot afford it, but it would be mean to not give you the opportunity to come" (paraphrasing)

It is the not giving her the opportunity to say no that is the horrible thing. They made assumption about her financial status (for all they know, she may money put aside for the trip) and decided they don't want her there. This is NOTHING to do with money.

We hoped to keep the tiger-safari a secret from her, but she found out from another friend. So you weren't keeping it a secret, you wanted her to find out, otherwise why tell anyone else

drip drip drip op!! She is better off without you!

Do gooders because we empathise with the friend...really? OP admits that she NEVER made an effort to visit friend, despite it costing 80quid for her friend to visit her, she still expected her to do it & have money to buy meals out & do activities. OP sounds selfish for not wanting the inconvenience of visiting her friend. And now she does this.

I have a feeling that you don't like her as much as you say, op!

Yes I would have spoken to skint/user friend beforehand to explain they will be booking a Safari, and just to tell her what op has told us here. I think op has had enough anyway, and this is the straw that broke the camels back for her. I feel she is just fed up with this friend, it seems time and time again she has made allowances and included her in plans. Due to her manipulative and user behaviour, quite frankly she does not sound very nice to be around. Friendships change, people change, mabey this is the perfect opportunity to call time on a 'friendship' that op gets very little out of. Yes op should have put a stop to it, a long time ago, and stop subbing her, well op is doing it now!

Are you the friend adifferentusername, sound like you might be. Only on Mumsnet, in real life, this behaviour would not be tolerated.

OP was paying for friend to go to hers, I most certainly would. Op has said she used to stay with friend.

I understand why you didn't invite your friend to come on the safari too, but where I think you have been massively unreasonable is not talking to your friend about money / her behaviour / your resentment over the years, and then just using this as a reason not to include her. You sound pretty cowardly (you were even hoping to keep a three week, trip of a lifetime secret to avoid rocking the boat!) and have been unfair not to a) discuss the issues with your friend (giving her a chance to change her ways); and b) go behind her back to book the holiday.

You made a rod for your own back by throwing money her way to save yourself the inconvenience of visiting her, and thought that would keep your friendship alive. You couldn't be bothered to put yourself out to see her. So you paid for her to save you the "inconvenience."

The OP has paid and paid over the years for this woman, when the stakes have been much smaller And her friend has travelled & travelled...does that count for nothing? Constantly being the only person bothered to travel gets wearing. OP admitted that she didn't like the hassle, so instead of being honest & saying to her friend "I can't afford/don't want to pay for your fare anymore" she sent her money to pay for her fare, which became the only way for the friend to afford to do it. So the op didn't have to try to save for visits.

BUT at the same time, op knew if she threw money at it, she didn't have the inconvenience/hassle at having to travel.

Either that, or the op is martyring herself by constantly paying for the friend & sees herself as 'knight in shining armour' always ready to help out. But as I said, I don't think she even wanted friend there at all. Otherwise, she would have mentioned it, but I think op was scared her friend would say yes! I have been saving/I can get that cash etc!

This isn't friendship...it's a chore.

BOTH of them have fulfilled their own selfish needs for years, but excluding the friend, assuming you knew she couldn't come is nasty, imo!