School using reward charts

[DisappointedOne]

I'll try and keep this short. DD is 4.5 and at a school nursery full time. She has been out of nappies for 2 years without problems.

Since February she's been wetting herself at school. Usually just a very tiny damp patch on her pants. Other times she's been completely soaked at the end of the day. It's taken a while but it seems there are 4 issues, all related to school (she had just 1 accident over the easter holidays).

Firstly she's terrified of toilet bugs. It doesn't matter how many times we tell her that washing her hands after going to the toilet kills the germs, she thinks she's going to get a bad tummy. (There was some stuff about her sucking her thumb which really upset her and I wonder whether that was used as some sort of incentive by her teacher.)

Secondly the nursery toilets are used by 30 3 and 4 year olds who have varying levels of control. By the end of the day they're in a terrible state, and DD would rather wet herself than have to use them.

Thirdly, DD thought that if she didn't drink anything, she wouldn't need to go to the toilet. Of course, that's not how it works, and her wee has been really concentrated by the end of the day and she's unable to hold it.

Finally, the structure of the afternoon means that there's no natural break for the children to go to the toilet, and the staff are very reluctant to prompt children to go. DD doesn't want to miss out so she's not going when she needs to.

Last week I spoke to her teacher and asked that she gently remind DD to drink water throughout the day and to go to the toilet. It happened for one day, DD came home dry, all was well.

Today she's come home with a reward chart - only because she was excited for us to see it. Had she not been bothered we'd be none the wiser. She gets stars for going to the toilet and at the end of the day can play with some particular toy that she loves. I'm seriously unhappy about it. I don't agree with reward charts, and am annoyed that the school have implemented one without even a mention to us. I saw her teacher this morning and she didn't say a word.

So, AIBU about this? Should I say something to the school?

A few years ago some school nurses launched a campaign to improve the availability and cleanliness of school loos, highlighting the problems that filthy loos (quite common in schools) can cause children.
I guess the OP's school missed that particular message.
Im sort of on the fence about reward charts myself. But if there is a problem with cleanliness then it needs addressing.

Both myself and my mum have mentioned the state of the toilets, both when we've had to take DD in there to get changed when she's had an accident at the end of the day, and in separate conversations I've said that she's told me herself that the toilets are "dirty" and that she doesn't want to go in them. Response has always been along the lines of "that's the nature of toilets that are used by 3 and 4 year olds" and a meaningless shrug.

I can understand your concerns OP.

DS had been dry from the age of 2 and a bit. Like your daughter he regressed when he started school nursery and had a few accidents. Unknown to me his dad had begun to use a reward chart to try and 'fix it'. We were separated.

The nursery teacher contacted us both separately with concerns that the reward chart was putting unnecessary pressure on him and he was becoming anxious. The reward chart was stopped and the situation righted itself naturally.

Communication is key here. A sit down with the nursery staff and/or the head teacher seems to be what's needed where you can express your concerns about the chart and the cleanliness of the toilets. I would expect the school to support your DD and address your concerns properly. A plan should be agreed and put in place that is practical and workable.

I've skimmed the thread a bit so apologies if I'm going over old ground.

Just out of interest, OP, why are you so keen for her to go to Welsh-speaking school?

Leaving aside the whole philosophical objection to reward charts (yes I read Alfie Kohn's book, I still see it as philosophical rather than scientific). If you're so sure external rewards are rubbish they have been lifesavers with DS2, then just tell the school your Plan B. You must have one, right?

"Hey school, I've got a better idea that will work so much better and be much easier & quicker & more reliable & more successful. It works like this..."

If you don't figure out that instant fantastic better idea, then I would go with their plan.

But as others have pointed out, what happens when the reward chart disappears and the toilets are still a mess?

Welsh fluency will give her advantages of she stays in Wales. If she doesn't being bilingual should make it easier for her to learn other languages later on.

Reward charts and telling children to take their fingers out of their mouths is standard in schools, so I would make peace with it tbh.

But as others have pointed out, what happens when the reward chart disappears and the toilets are still a mess?

She will probably have got over her fear. I think this is what you don't seem to get, reward systems don't last forever. That link was complete nonsense
At 19 I am not giving ds a chocolate button because he did a poo He got them for a week or so while potty training was established and once the novelty of using the potty wore off and he just took himself to the loo. My dc are 17 and 19 now, and reward systems have not made them entitled. They have done lots of volunteering and both have p/t jobs and ds doesn't expect to be extra rewarded for turning up at work in uniform.

I use to sometimes give DS a chocolate raisin to put his shoes on in the morning. He would rant about the shoes or his socks; really he was just anxious about going to school (found it hard to sit still & pay attention). Chocolate raisin & he put shoes on & traipsed to school in peace (hallelujah). Can't remember how it stopped, wasn't every day anyway.

Why on earth is refusal to use dirty disgusting toilets deemed as a fear she must get over?

how about someone hiring a cleaner and making sure kids have safe clean toilets to use??

if you went round your friends house who moaned her cats pissed everywhere you'd waste no time pointing out that the shit filled stinking litter tray might be the problem and quietly think she's an idiot.

yet kids have to just get on with it?? step over the puddles sit on a dirty seat and go?

really?

We put so many stresses on our children. Our beyond perfect loos at home make children uptight and our often ridiculous insistence on hygiene makes children often OCD before even starting school. Wash your hands an anti bac every 5 seconds. We overdo the washing of hands. Just tell them to wash their hands afterwards. When my older ones were 3/4, all of their friends were fully toilet trained. Too many entitled parents and children. I teach and have seen the year on year increase of incontinent children. Only factor I can see is increase in faffy parents. Get a grip. The sooner they don't have poor toileting habits the better.

I agree learning another language is always good, but what advantages will she have by speaking Welsh and continuing her education in the Welsh system (I presume that's what you mean)?

My DNeice went through the Welsh school system and is a fluent Welsh speaker. She's now at uni doing her degree in history in Welsh (iykwim) - she gets an extra couple of thousand from the Welsh government for being a Welsh speaker and got accommodation specifically for Welsh speakers at her (Welsh) uni, but apart from that I don't know what advantages there are.

going there's a middle ground between pristine and shit on the floor.

op isn't expecting to eat her dinner of the loo seat. just not have her dd treading on shit just to relieve herself. hardly the height of faffy

I wouldn't sit down on a public loo where there was pee all over it and DD is still rather small to expect her to wipe it clean or crouch over it without peeing everywhere, including her pants and shoes. Why should she or any of the children be made to use filthy toilets?
It seems to me there is a known problem with hygiene and the school should be addressing this first. Isn't it a health and safety risk if there is literally shit being trodden over the school? Nobody would put up with this in a workplace: if the teachers had to use those toilets something would be done about it!

Well soldier

in the real world people would deem kids having access to a filthy unsanitary toilet, or no access at All due to conditions of said toilet and the only food served was inedible, as abusive.

In MN world everyone's above cleaning a toilet, teachers don't even have to be nice to kids and eating the worst mass produced crap and using filthy facilities is apparently a life skill

giles if you remember the class had to spend the afternoon outside due to the poo incident. You make it sound like the teachers didn't mind poo being walked through the classroom.
There was an accident and they dealt with it.

This is what the op had to say about the state of the toilets on page one of the thread

They're not in that awful a state, to be honest, but some children don't flush and their aim may not be that marvellous - this is a nursery class and some children aren't 4 yet

The state of the toilets has been getting worse throughout the op but this was how they were initially described.

Whilst I agree that if there is a problem with cleanliness in the toilets it should be addressed the OP herself says 'They're not in that awful a state to be honest' - that doesn't mean that they can't be improved but the level of hysteria among some posters on this thread about 'piss and shit everywhere' is ridiculous

Because things often don't seem so bad to adults. because as adults we possess the ability to assess a situation. For instance if there's something floating about winking at us we would realise that flush it and it will be gone.

We possess the ability to see a puddle is that side and we won't be near it of we use this one. and if there's no loo rill we would take from another. or wed just wipe the seat.

to a child the situation would seem much worse. they dint possess the abilities we do.

same way we'd eat around something we didn't like and a child would be upset as they felt they couldn't eat any of a meal.

My Dds won't use certain loos. they will pee under bush if they have to but a dirty loo, no chance.

They're not in that awful a state to me as an adult, because if I had to use them I know how to get it into a state where I could. DD is not of a size or age where she could do that. She'd look for a clean toilet, but by 2pm I'd guess that they all have errant loo roll, dribbles and smears on them.

We put so many stresses on our children. Our beyond perfect loos at home make children uptight and our often ridiculous insistence on hygiene makes children often OCD before even starting school. Wash your hands an anti bac every 5 seconds. We overdo the washing of hands. Just tell them to wash their hands afterwards. When my older ones were 3/4, all of their friends were fully toilet trained. Too many entitled parents and children. I teach and have seen the year on year increase of incontinent children. Only factor I can see is increase in faffy parents. Get a grip. The sooner they don't have poor toileting habits the better.

Not in this house. I don't hoover, dust or clean loos more often than once a month probably not even that. DD has to wash hands before eating and after using the loo. She's not bathed or showered every day and isn't scrubbed clean when she is. The only time I ever use anti-bac is if we visit a soft play or farm or something, and that's only because she sucks her thumb. She's extremely healthy and not at all pretentious about using toilets usually. Even chemical toilets at a summer festival don't cause issues (but then she's not in them on her own whereas she is at school).

She wasn't even slightly incontinent when she started school. She'd been accident free for almost 2 years. Her toilet habits everywhere else are perfectly fine. So presumably,given your rant, I'm entitled to blame the teachers for her issues at school. They must be doing something faffy with her.

"I agree learning another language is always good, but what advantages will she have by speaking Welsh and continuing her education in the Welsh system (I presume that's what you mean)?

My DNeice went through the Welsh school system and is a fluent Welsh speaker. She's now at uni doing her degree in history in Welsh (iykwim) - she gets an extra couple of thousand from the Welsh government for being a Welsh speaker and got accommodation specifically for Welsh speakers at her (Welsh) uni, but apart from that I don't know what advantages there are."

Fluency earlier. It's second nature to her already. I did it the hard way, as a teenager, and have never achieved fluency. Focussing on learning it now will free up time later on for maths, science, music........ whatever else she's interested in basically. She'll have an advantage in the jobs field in Wales if she speaks welsh.

We're basically using now as the time when it's easiest for her to learn. If she never uses it, well, nothing lost, but it should leave her in a better position than had she not.

(It's certainly not hampering her at the moment - she's about half a year ahead of her other classmates.)

disappointed sorry but I find it really unlikely you would describe a child's toilet from an adult perspective.

They are tiny toilets for children with stalls you can look over the top of. It's like saying a toddler bed isn't that bad and then claiming you meant from an adult perspective. It makes no sense.

I'm an adult. How would I describe it as anything else?