School using reward charts

[DisappointedOne]

I'll try and keep this short. DD is 4.5 and at a school nursery full time. She has been out of nappies for 2 years without problems.

Since February she's been wetting herself at school. Usually just a very tiny damp patch on her pants. Other times she's been completely soaked at the end of the day. It's taken a while but it seems there are 4 issues, all related to school (she had just 1 accident over the easter holidays).

Firstly she's terrified of toilet bugs. It doesn't matter how many times we tell her that washing her hands after going to the toilet kills the germs, she thinks she's going to get a bad tummy. (There was some stuff about her sucking her thumb which really upset her and I wonder whether that was used as some sort of incentive by her teacher.)

Secondly the nursery toilets are used by 30 3 and 4 year olds who have varying levels of control. By the end of the day they're in a terrible state, and DD would rather wet herself than have to use them.

Thirdly, DD thought that if she didn't drink anything, she wouldn't need to go to the toilet. Of course, that's not how it works, and her wee has been really concentrated by the end of the day and she's unable to hold it.

Finally, the structure of the afternoon means that there's no natural break for the children to go to the toilet, and the staff are very reluctant to prompt children to go. DD doesn't want to miss out so she's not going when she needs to.

Last week I spoke to her teacher and asked that she gently remind DD to drink water throughout the day and to go to the toilet. It happened for one day, DD came home dry, all was well.

Today she's come home with a reward chart - only because she was excited for us to see it. Had she not been bothered we'd be none the wiser. She gets stars for going to the toilet and at the end of the day can play with some particular toy that she loves. I'm seriously unhappy about it. I don't agree with reward charts, and am annoyed that the school have implemented one without even a mention to us. I saw her teacher this morning and she didn't say a word.

So, AIBU about this? Should I say something to the school?

You are also a parent, knowing what is suitable for you and suitable for your child should come second nature by now.

For example suitable hot chocolate for you = hot hot chocolate
suitable hot chocolate for a 3 year old = warm hot chocolate

Having skimmed this thread, I can tell you that YABU alone for quoting Sarah Ockwell-Smith who is a total fruitloop.

Horrid, you don't know me or my child. My experience of the nursery toilets is having an upset little girl who needs changing quickly (as staff don't want you around at the end of the day). Apologies that my focus has always been on making her comfortable as fast as possible rather than constructing some sort of mental tick sheet for the state of the toilets to the average 4 year old.

FWIW I expressed all of DD's milk, which even as a tiny baby she would only drink if it were hotter than body temperature. She drinks drinks hotter than I do (I like them cold) so no, I wouldn't think in the same way as you. I'm not sorry about that.

Ok op, I admit a lot of your thread still seems very odd to me but I have forgotten you have been worried about your daughter all today.
Best of luck, I hope you find a solution.

OP, take the toilet cleanliness issue to the head. You are right, they should be kept in a clean state. Having lots of 3 and 4 year olds using them means they should be cleaned far more often, not that the children should use filthy loos. Complain to someone who is responsible and who can do something about it.

As for reward charts and bribes, etc, you will have to work in the system you have. The school is going to do lots.of stuff you do not agree with and they will not consult you on any of it (attendence awards, fines for a child missing school, Y1 phonics tests, foundation subjects shunted to one side to cram in maths and English pre- SATS) That's how school works. It sounds like the brilliant opportunity to be bilingual makes this school a good choice Even if you disagree with with some of their educational philosophies. The school were not unreasonable to have a reward chart and were not unreasonable to implement it without discussing it with you. 4 is very young to hand over your child to formal education but that is how it works in the UK. Parents cede a lot of control at an early age.

But the toilets: go talk to someone who can fix.the problem.

I'm getting confused by this thread. If the now filthy toilets are the main issue, addressing the problem should be fairly straightforward. Could you teach your dd to quickly flush a toilet someone else has used or tell a teacher if the floors are dirty, (with anything more than a bit of tissue)? If she is used to chemical toilets and a non pristine home that shouldn't be a problem and the reward chart issue should go away. I agree it isn't ideal that toilets get into a mess but often when you go into a toilet out and about you may have to flush it or swap cubicles.

If, as I think was mentioned at the beginning of the thread, it is the change of routine etc that is part of the problem, then this problem is possibly more complex and I would speak to a HV/ school nurse/ gp. They can be really good at liaising with teachers to work out a solution which works for everyone, before the issue becomes more of a problem.

I would take the filthy loo issue to the school nurses and the HT. It needs fixing.
Agree with Giles above.
Children shouldnt have to use dirty toilets. We have readily available cleaning materials and a famously effective sewerage system.

I think you have to establish about the toilet is

1. is only OP's dd the only one refusing to use them
2. Could it have been a one off that the toilets were in a bad way as op

herself said they weren't that bad when she saw them and the dd was put off by that and now scared to used them, rather them being in a filthy state all the time

1. Is she not using the toilets at all or only in the morning etc

ignore "gentle parenting" - they are barking up completely the wrong tree.

it is quite true that rewards have been shown to be slightly more effective when unpredictable, but not that it is more effective not to reward at all. They are also very muddled between their intrinsic and extrinsic motivations, and the link and causal effects between the two, and are using some very questionable research indeed, not to mention ignoring much higher quality investigations.

Hasn't OP said herself that her DD will use the loo for a 'number 2' if she needs to but not for a wee and has used them before no problem. I don't think it is the state of the toilets, just a change in routine - as someone else said the loos should now be in a better condition that when she started as all the children are older.
But alternatively she now becoming more aware of her surroundings and they might have been giving them germs and washing hands talks - so she is now more aware of the 'problem' I think the festival loo thing etc is irrelevant unless she has used those less than spotless loos recently.
I would just see if the reward chart works in the short run and not stress too much.
Have you tried asking her about why this is happening?
Although she might not really know ...and has been given lots of reasons by adults so will say what she thinks you want to hear....

She gives different reasons when we talk about it. She's said that she's "worried about the bugs in the toilet" - reinforced that washing hands properly afterwards deals with that; "the toilets are dirty" - tried to address that with staff but suppose it could have been a particularly bad one off that's stuck with her; "my bladder tells a tiny bit of wee to sneak out" - no idea what that one is about!

YANBU to disapprove of reward charts; that is your business. However YABU to expect a school not to use the method. They have 30 kids to deal with and ostensibly your daughter is happy and excited by the prospect of stickers so I'd let them get on with it. Our entire culture is reward based; heck my husband is 30 and gets a performance related bonus!

My mum taught me to lay down 5 sheets of loo roll on a toilet seat if it was grubby and to always flush prior to using. Wetting will make DD have sore skin which isn't good for her either... I don't know whether it'd helpor just worry her to mention that but I think it could help paint the loo as the lesser of two evils.

She has been getting sore. She couldn't care less about it.

Hmmmm. Don't know what to suggest then. I did have issues with school loos myself but luckily for my mum I used the loo as hated being damp or smelly.

My mum as well as helping me make the envuronment cleaner (as far as a 5 year old can) built in a routine which we followed at home too - toilet at about 10am (break time at school) and after lunch.

I don't understand why it would be unacceptable to have toilets in this state in a day nursery but it is OK in a school nursery. Imagine going into the babyroom and finding dirty nappies lying around, or little ones walking through puddles in the loo and then trailing it back into their room, in my GC nursery they wear slippers so it would be pretty horrible. If people work with pre school kids they should keep the loos clean.

They're not in that awful a state, to be honest, but some children don't flush and their aim may not be that marvellous - this is a nursery class and some children aren't 4 yet.
So not as bad as some people imagine.

This is at the end of the day when children will have used the lavatories in a rush on their way out, unsupervised because the staff are too busy handing out coats, bags, reading books et al.

Is faeces smeared on the wall, wee trails on the floor, dirty pants stuffed into the lavatory? I have had to deal with all that in the past, because no cleaner or TA was available.

The cleaners do not clean until the school day is ended; they are not on site during the day, but cleaning materials are and are frequently used by staff.

This child clearly has an issue with using the lavatories, but everything the school tries to do is derided by the poster. Her contempt for the school is very evident, and will be picked up subconsciously by her daughter, if it hasn't already.

I am nothing but supportive of the staff and the school as a whole.

The ONLY thing they have tried to do

Not how its coming over to be honest. The subtext I get is how dare they do a reward chart without consulting me. I know better. And they could do more. What 'more' though. I am a bit mystified? Its a bog standard strategy and its working. The germs issue with your DD needs work as do the cleaning issues, but no-one's died. Its sort-able.

No-one 'wants them sainted'. Posters just dont get what is so bad about quietly implementing a standard strategy - that works. Anything more would turn a 'bump' along the way into a drama. Childhood is full of 'bumps' like this. Sounds like a good Nursery who are trying/pro active but have work to do re the hygiene/their Cleaner. Is your DD otherwise happy/thriving, if so, calm down.

Then flip it on its head! Get your dd to reward herself with the sticker on the chart when she's done well at the specific things. Get her to tell an adult what particularly she did well and then she can get a sticker and award it to herself.

That will help placate your concerns surrounding the internal/external locus of control, be something the school can work with and that your dd will be able to understand.

Using a sticker chart will lead to sticker rewards being needed for life, or there'd be several generations not using the toilet properly without a sticker. But I do know what you mean and the studies which you are talking about. They are not really relevant in this circumstance though. It doesn't matter that she has managed it before, the point is that she isn't managing it now and you need to break the habit whichever way is feasible and works. If I was in your shoes I'd be stickering the hell out of it, whilst looking at the obsessive natures of some of your dd's concerns such as the germs etc.

Valid concerns op, but I don't believe you've fully understood the research you've read as it doesn't really apply to this situation. My suggestion above should be more of a happy medium for you and the school to help your dd succeed, which of course is what it's all about.

DD is not obsessive about germs generally. Or anything else for that matter.

She'd rather sit in wee and poo than use the toilets partly due to her understanding of germs... That would indicate a slightly obsessive way of looking at things

IronGnome I'm loving the 'stickering the hell out of it'! Children love stickers & plastic tat. Fact. They grow out of it. Fact. OP isnt getting that s & keeps quoting study that isnt applicable. Read the one on rewarding for effort rather than achievement OP. Its recent and widely accepted/proven. And re the germs issue again, you are spot on too Iron. She obviously needs the germ talk revisited. (and the loo's need sorting).

Sorry but what a load of tosh, everyone likes to be rewarded...look at the bankers for ffs tney get £££££££ rewards for hard work(!) never read such a load of utter crap, nah you'll probably find that when the cameras stopped rolling and 6 months have gone by, parents have been ad hoc with the rward sytem, and thats the reason for behaviour regression. ho hum here we go again with more lousy misinformation.

My dd2 did this - wouldn't go to the loo at nursery, tried to hold it in and wet herself. She was scared of the loos there, not for any particular reason - she was scared of lots of things at the time. I took her in to the loos first thing every day and did lots of ooh this loo is nice, look dd which one do you like best, shall we wash in this sink etc just so she got used to using them feeling safe. The nursery nurse also got her to do drawings and 'writing' - plus a photo of her - to put up on the loo wall to show everyone how to wash their hands.She loved that!

It took a while but she did get there!

So -op -I think you should focus on helping dd to feel safe and ok about going to the toilet at nursery.

She'd rather sit in wee and poo than use the toilets partly due to her understanding of germs... That would indicate a slightly obsessive way of looking at things

Please re read the OP. She's never had an accident involving poo. Most wetting accidents have been a small dribble rather than a flood she needs to "sit in".