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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

School using reward charts

253 replies

DisappointedOne · 20/04/2015 23:21

I'll try and keep this short. DD is 4.5 and at a school nursery full time. She has been out of nappies for 2 years without problems.

Since February she's been wetting herself at school. Usually just a very tiny damp patch on her pants. Other times she's been completely soaked at the end of the day. It's taken a while but it seems there are 4 issues, all related to school (she had just 1 accident over the easter holidays).

Firstly she's terrified of toilet bugs. It doesn't matter how many times we tell her that washing her hands after going to the toilet kills the germs, she thinks she's going to get a bad tummy. (There was some stuff about her sucking her thumb which really upset her and I wonder whether that was used as some sort of incentive by her teacher.)

Secondly the nursery toilets are used by 30 3 and 4 year olds who have varying levels of control. By the end of the day they're in a terrible state, and DD would rather wet herself than have to use them.

Thirdly, DD thought that if she didn't drink anything, she wouldn't need to go to the toilet. Of course, that's not how it works, and her wee has been really concentrated by the end of the day and she's unable to hold it.

Finally, the structure of the afternoon means that there's no natural break for the children to go to the toilet, and the staff are very reluctant to prompt children to go. DD doesn't want to miss out so she's not going when she needs to.

Last week I spoke to her teacher and asked that she gently remind DD to drink water throughout the day and to go to the toilet. It happened for one day, DD came home dry, all was well.

Today she's come home with a reward chart - only because she was excited for us to see it. Had she not been bothered we'd be none the wiser. She gets stars for going to the toilet and at the end of the day can play with some particular toy that she loves. I'm seriously unhappy about it. I don't agree with reward charts, and am annoyed that the school have implemented one without even a mention to us. I saw her teacher this morning and she didn't say a word.

So, AIBU about this? Should I say something to the school?

OP posts:
WorraLiberty · 21/04/2015 00:02

Harassed? That's seriously weird and really not something most people (to my knowledge have to deal with).

Either way, once your child enters actual school, you'll need to get used to the reward system.

For most pupils I know/have known over the years, it's been a very positive one.

TheFairyCaravan · 21/04/2015 00:07

Crikey, I used to work in South Wales. No one ever harassed anyone for a prize for turning up on time or not phoning in sick without a hangover,

My kids had reward charts in infant school in South Wales, they aren't damaged, they don't harass anyone for prizes or bribes or rewards. They wouldn't get far if they did!

I think it's unfair to expect the school to do things in exactly the same way as you do at home. They have 29 other children to look after too.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 00:07

She is at actual school.

I'm still unhappy about it, but perhaps I'll give it a few days and see how DD responds. She won't eat the muck they call dinner for a sticker so it may be short lived!

(Yes. It's amazing but the owner of the petrol station up the road - he tends to employ uni students - and they started giving him grief about not getting bonuses for wearing their uniforms or showing up on time. He's quite elderly and they really ganged up on him. I believe one of them said they'd burn the place down if he didn't start paying them more. He was very scared.)

OP posts:
Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 00:09

I've noticed a real increase in it TheFairyCaravan. I get a lot of HR policy drafting work and it tends to start with a reward scheme or performance related pay policy because of these kinds of expectations from staff.

OP posts:
WorraLiberty · 21/04/2015 00:10

And that extreme example is down to reward charts when they were little??

What did the Police say?

Pyjamaschocolateandwine · 21/04/2015 00:15

Agree with worras post.

Not sure it's feasibly for the teacher to prompt every child of 4.5 to go up the loo. Most by then are self care with a few hitches.

Rewards are normal. Can't see your objection.

I was a reception class TA and toilets weren't in a terrible state at the end of any day. Complain.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 00:19

It probably doesn't help, Worra!

Police said he could press charges, but he didn't want to. We fired them all instead, put in place new policies and recruited new staff. Not sure what happened to the old staff.

OP posts:
Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 00:19

Rewards are normal. Can't see your objection.

Did you read the article?!

OP posts:
Pyjamaschocolateandwine · 21/04/2015 00:20

Mmm all my mums relatives live in South Wales as they are welsh Grin.

They would piss themselves laughing at your posts op.

TheFairyCaravan · 21/04/2015 00:21

My children are 18 & 20. DS1 is in the Army so wouldn't expect anything for wearing his uniform correctly, however DS2 has a part time job as do the majority of their friends. Not one of them has moaned, groaned, begged or pleaded for any bonus or reward. They are all incredibly greatful to have the job in the first place.

I am flabbergasted at what you're coming out with and how you're blaming it on reward charts.

Shesparkles · 21/04/2015 00:22

My employer works on a reward system. I turn up at work, do my job and when I do that for a whole month...they pay me.
Without going into the psychology, of a child makes a special effort to achieve something, and makes that achievement, why on earth would you not reward it!

Pyjamaschocolateandwine · 21/04/2015 00:26

Bloody welsh Aye!

Destroy toilets, demand rewards, adults demand stickers and uni
Students threaten to burn down old people running petrol stations!

We'll keep a welcome in the vales aye op?

Keep it coming. Hope your sheep are safe?

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 00:26

Perhaps if you read the article. It links to some nice scientific research papers if you fancy some light bedtime reading.

OP posts:
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 00:27

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

WorraLiberty · 21/04/2015 00:29

It'll be all that bloody singing Grin

Hanging round the hillsides all day, belting out notes in perfect harmony! Grin

Pyjamaschocolateandwine · 21/04/2015 00:32

And the sheep remember baa baa! Wink

WorraLiberty · 21/04/2015 00:34

I've read the article.

My experience, my siblings experience the experience of my 3 DC, the majority of their friends, my step granddaughter and the majority of the 950 pupils at the school I'm chair of governors at, is what makes me completely disagree with it.

Rewards have been used at home, at schools and in the workplace since time immemorial.

As long as they're used properly and given when someone really has worked hard to achieve something, they're very effective ime.

Pyjamaschocolateandwine · 21/04/2015 00:40

Agree worra as a mum of 4 and a cm rewards are a well researched based positive experience for children.

Have to say thought the thread was a joke really.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 00:47

Thanks very much. Glad my being upset about my daughter having a problem at school has amused you so greatly. What do you do for an encore? Piss on people's graves?

We're living in a culture of entitlement, and while you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine and I've no problem with them differing. It used to be fine to cane children, but that's something that is now outlawed. Perhaps reward charts will be in the future too. It's not a form of conditioning that I'm comfortable with for my daughter. Having a child in school is a new thing for me and it is taking some getting used to.

This thread isn't a joke. Some posters have given me food for thought which I'll mull over before doing anything. Others of you have taken the piss. Perhaps you've never got past the child stage yourself.

OP posts:
CitySnicker · 21/04/2015 01:03

Be careful that your attitude regarding the state of the toilets and the 'muck' they are serving up isn't an influence on your daughters fears.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 01:13

She's not getting these worries from me!

OP posts:
mamapain · 21/04/2015 01:27

I've read and re-read that link you posted. Surely the difference is in the kind of task you are rewarding?

Toilet Training her is basically instilling a habit based on a physical experience. That's what the whole Pavlov's dog thing proved isn't it?

Its completely different to reward charts for intangible/undefinable actions: being good/being kind. This reward chart is helping her to learn a habit which she probably won't regress from.

I'm not explaining myself very well, but I think that article is, and possibly you are too, extrapolating.

ScathingContempt · 21/04/2015 01:47

I have a psychology degree, a masters in special needs education and over a decade's experience in teaching. Rewards in education have their place when used appropriately. I think, as a previous poster said, this one is good because it's rewarding the action not the outcome ie. the going to the toilet not the remaining dry.

The reward chart is an explicit reward which will eventually be replaced by the more implicit reward of not being wet at the end of the day. We get rewarded for everything we do in life. Get rewarded for eating by the disappearance of hunger pains, rewarded for altruistic behaviour by social acceptance or feeling good about ourselves. Etc etc. However in some situations children might need encouraging to work towards the internal reward outcome and things like sticker charts can have a place.

With regards to the dirty toilets, yabu to expect the teacher to give them a quick clean, there's a good chance she doesn't get a minute all day to go to the toilet herself! But yanbu to ask if the premises staff could clean them in between the morning/evening cleaning sessions.

When you say the staff aren't keen to remind the children to go to the toilet, what do you mean? This might be something worth discussing with them. It's okay rewarding her for going but if they're not going to support her in choosing to go the reward system won't work.

ScathingContempt · 21/04/2015 01:51

(I'm not bragging about my qualifications, just you seem to think your own studies and ability to read journal articles is relevant to the topic so I'm putting my opinions forward in that context.)

Groovee · 21/04/2015 02:54

I work in a school nursery. Often one member of staff is assigned to check and clean the toilets at the end of the morning session. We also have to remind them to wash their hands after going to the toilet and before having snack.

We often have a visit from environmental health who come to explain why they need to wash their hands and show them the germs in a special machine.

We have found for some children a reward chart works. A bit like a visual time table can work wonders for some children.

But it is very common for children in nursery to forget to go to the toilet because they are too busy.