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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

School using reward charts

253 replies

DisappointedOne · 20/04/2015 23:21

I'll try and keep this short. DD is 4.5 and at a school nursery full time. She has been out of nappies for 2 years without problems.

Since February she's been wetting herself at school. Usually just a very tiny damp patch on her pants. Other times she's been completely soaked at the end of the day. It's taken a while but it seems there are 4 issues, all related to school (she had just 1 accident over the easter holidays).

Firstly she's terrified of toilet bugs. It doesn't matter how many times we tell her that washing her hands after going to the toilet kills the germs, she thinks she's going to get a bad tummy. (There was some stuff about her sucking her thumb which really upset her and I wonder whether that was used as some sort of incentive by her teacher.)

Secondly the nursery toilets are used by 30 3 and 4 year olds who have varying levels of control. By the end of the day they're in a terrible state, and DD would rather wet herself than have to use them.

Thirdly, DD thought that if she didn't drink anything, she wouldn't need to go to the toilet. Of course, that's not how it works, and her wee has been really concentrated by the end of the day and she's unable to hold it.

Finally, the structure of the afternoon means that there's no natural break for the children to go to the toilet, and the staff are very reluctant to prompt children to go. DD doesn't want to miss out so she's not going when she needs to.

Last week I spoke to her teacher and asked that she gently remind DD to drink water throughout the day and to go to the toilet. It happened for one day, DD came home dry, all was well.

Today she's come home with a reward chart - only because she was excited for us to see it. Had she not been bothered we'd be none the wiser. She gets stars for going to the toilet and at the end of the day can play with some particular toy that she loves. I'm seriously unhappy about it. I don't agree with reward charts, and am annoyed that the school have implemented one without even a mention to us. I saw her teacher this morning and she didn't say a word.

So, AIBU about this? Should I say something to the school?

OP posts:
Gileswithachainsaw · 21/04/2015 13:42

God, how can none of you see, that a) the child has been dry 2 years is perfectly arable of using toilet and has had no more than the occasion usual childhood accident, has suddenly been frightened or repulsed out of using the loo as they are left filthy.

how the fuck.is any if that to do with the op

wouldn't matter what she said or did to the teachers. The problem. is not her dd or her.

and no poo is not funny. Kids don't laugh at shit on the floor. mine would point blank refuse to use a.loo in that state either and I've never asked anything of my Dds pre schools.

A star chart solves nothing. It's setting her up fir failure fir the next day she walks in and the toilets left so dirty kids are pissing themselves or not drinking just to avoid them.

CrohnicallyInflexible · 21/04/2015 13:51

unnatural exactly. Using your example of housework- it feels nice to you if your partner came home and said 'you did a great job, that looks nice'. Or brought you breakfast in bed because 'you've been working so hard lately'. You weren't expecting a reward, you did it because it needed doing, but you feel good that your partner noticed and said/did something. This is similar to a school handing out stickers for good work.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 13:54

*Just out of interest, are there separate toilets for the boys? Do they have a urinal? Because in my experience (of cleaning the toilets!) it is boys learning to stand that cause the majority of mess on the seat. Could standing boys be prompted to lift the seat up? (Maybe with a picture on the wall)

The other common issue is more easily sorted- even if the seats are low level some children struggle to get on and off the toilet properly, they will perch on the edge meaning they wee or poo on the seat/floor. Putting steps in each cubicle will help.

Failing all of that, what about a portable toilet seat for your DD, it could live in a bag on her peg and she could fetch it herself when she needs to go.

For the 'toilet bugs' maybe a practical demonstration would help? I bet cbeebies Get Well Soon would have an episode to help show her how hand washing works!*

There are 4 cubicles with tiny toilets in them and short doors that don't reach the floor (they're about a 18 inches off the ground). No urinals, and the toilets are unisex. There are pictures of what to do, and how to wash hands, but it's a pretty grim environment. Reception class have a similar set up but the toilet doors are bigger and the loos I think are slightly bigger too. DD has a thing about being watched on the toilet, even by me, so I wonder whether something has happened there and someone has been watching from under the door or something.

Done the Dr Ranj episodes, and a body book.

The mess tends to be wee and poo on the seats, wee on the floor, paper down the loo and on the floor. Not every child flushes after use either.

OP posts:
PeachyPants · 21/04/2015 13:57

I don't think the OP has caused the toileting problems at all Gileswithachainsaw and I honestly do have a lot of sympathy for OP and her DD with regards to the incontinence. However I think her attitude to the school's attempt to address the issue is unreasonable and I am questioning whether it may be part of a wider pattern.

Gileswithachainsaw · 21/04/2015 14:04

But a reward chart in these circumstances is not addressing the issue at all. It's like these stickers that get given out for finishing your lunch.

The kid had no issue before. but is compelled to please the teachers with the promise of a reward. when originally they were doing nothing wrong by stopping when full or wanting to use facilities left in a reasonable state.

The chart is presenting the child as the one with the problem that needs solving when there wouldn't be a problem in the first place if the facilities were fit for use.

who wouldn't be annoyed at that regardless of feelings about star charts

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 14:04

How am i unreasonable to question the use of a reward chart? Others have pointed out the potential problems of using them in this case. I've said nothing to the school about it, nor shown anything but positivity to DD, and said I'll see how it goes. But I still have concerns about it, yes. That's completely reasonable.

As for a "wider pattern" you are only interested in your own conclusion. I haven't been a pain in the arse, i am not a difficult parent. i work with the school, which often involves me biting my tongue in my DD's best interests. I can do no more, and I won't apologise for being an interested and involved parent. I was raised by teachers. They know DD, they've seen the school set up, and apart from this issue are pretty happy with it (although dad would love for religious instruction to be illegal as much as I would). We have gone about things with DD's best interests at heart. I suspect the school would love for more parents to be involved than are. Most do just throw their kids through the door and leave them to it.

OP posts:
Flywheel · 21/04/2015 14:06

I have 3 dc and never used reward charts until recently. Partly I never felt the need, and partly I was put off due to reading discussions here and elsewhere.
Recently I had a problem with dd going to bed. I was at my wits end and decided to try a reward chart. Bingo - problem solved within a couple of days. Reward chart forgotten about a week later. Job done. I was amazed how easy and effective it was. Sometimes kids need an extra bit of motivation to get past irrational fears (monsters at bedtime, toilet germs). I could imagine the chart being very effective in this instance. Once she's over the fear of using the nursery toilet, there is no reason to assume she will regress, especially as she has the additional reward of staying dry and comfortable.

WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 21/04/2015 14:08

and no poo is not funny not to an adult and I'm not saying this situation is funny. But a lot of 4 year olds find poo hilarious and my dd would laugh her ass off at poo being walked through a classroom.
Maybe she's not as mature as the ops dd?

I still find it hard to take the op all that seriously. I still think if she massively over reacts about one thing there's a good chance she's over reacting about other things.

As to the if I was any more chilled out I would be on the floor comment. Grin I seriously doubt it.

Gileswithachainsaw · 21/04/2015 14:08

You would reward a toddler fir using the potty.

you don't use a reward chart for making a kid use filthy loos against her will to save them a job of cleaning them.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 14:09

But that doesn't address the fact that any other toilet is fine and the only problem is with the ones at school, which I've seen the state of! i suspect DD would rather squat under a tree than use the toilets there, but I obviously won't suggest that!

OP posts:
GoblinLittleOwl · 21/04/2015 14:10

Have read the entire thread.
There are serious issues here, and they are all OP's.
This child will continue to have problems throughout school, generated by the mother.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 14:11

Living up to your username there, Horrid. Good job.

OP posts:
Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 14:12

And now the Goblins are out too. Goody.

Come on then, what serious issues? I could do with a laugh.

OP posts:
PeachyPants · 21/04/2015 14:15

Well you've asked whether you are being unreasonable about the school's use of star charts and in my view you are, they are pretty much accepted practice in schools and regardless of your personal views on them I think you would be doing your DD no favours by raising this with the school (if the toilets are in the state you describe and this isn't another example of hyperbole then that's a separate issue and one I think it would be reasonable to raise). Your contempt and slight smugness about the other parents do leak through in the comments you make though and I think this will win you no friends.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 14:19

Well, I'm not looking for friends. I'm looking for DD to enjoy her school life without unnecessary anxiety and to remain a happy and well adjusted little girl. The school is brilliant in so many ways. I'm not sure how I could have known about reward charts being so common. And clearly I should have been focussed on making DD comfortable with using a dirty toilet while being grateful that she was off my hands for a few hours.

OP posts:
WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 21/04/2015 14:21

You've not always been pleasant yourself op - this is one of your previous comments

Have you all been in the pub all night, or does your medication need reviewing

Flywheel · 21/04/2015 14:23

But op, you say this is a new problem. What has changed since February? Do you think the hygiene has deteriorated or do you think your dd has developed a bit of a phobia? If it's the former, then you really need to get to the bottom of the unacceptable standards. If the latter, then a reward chart really could help.
These will not be the last less than perfect toilets your dd will have to use throughout her life. She may develop a life long phobia of public loos, like other posters on this thread, but I think this would be best avoided.

Aeroflotgirl · 21/04/2015 14:26

Yabvvvu. Nothing wrong with reward charts, if they are using them and they are working, it is them who is looking after your child in the day.

Aeroflotgirl · 21/04/2015 14:27

Teachers have enough to do, than to keep the toilets sparkling, if the reward charts are working for your dd at school so be it. If you are not happy, home school her!

lucycant · 21/04/2015 14:35

I have worked with children this age. Every time I went in to the toilets I had to flush some toilets or wipe some toilet seats. It is pretty never ending at this age, with this many young children.

Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 14:36

FFS. I wish people would RTFT.

OP posts:
Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 14:37

I DON'T expect the teaching staff to clean the loos.

DD has no problem going to the toilet anywhere else.

They changed the timetable in February.

OP posts:
Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 14:37

She's at school to learn Welsh. That's it. I'd happily homeschool if I could give her that.

OP posts:
Original poster
DisappointedOne · 21/04/2015 14:38

Bravo Horrid. You managed to quote me accurately for once. Apart from the question mark.

OP posts:
KumquatMay · 21/04/2015 14:39

DisappointedOne

If you don't want to use star charts at home, that's fine. I understand (though don't agree with) your concerns about teaching children a set of behaviours in order to achieve a goal without tackling the underlying issue. Especially when it comes to moral or ethical behaviours.

But I don't think the reasoning applies here. Your daughter, in order to be healthy, needs to learn a set of behaviours - she needs to learn and practice going to to the toilet even when more exciting things are going on, she needs to learn and practice going to the toilet even when they're not as clean as she'd like. These are both behaviours that she needs to learn, and once she's learnt them (and got over her feeling of 'missing out' and hating the toilets) she'll continue to put them into practice. She's not going to reach 30 and still need a star chart to go to the loo.

She needs an incentive to get over the missing out and the dirty toilets (as an adult I use plenty of 'dirty' public loos, you've just got to get on with it) which the start chart is providing - once she's done it enough times it won't be an issue anymore.