School using reward charts

[DisappointedOne]

I'll try and keep this short. DD is 4.5 and at a school nursery full time. She has been out of nappies for 2 years without problems.

Since February she's been wetting herself at school. Usually just a very tiny damp patch on her pants. Other times she's been completely soaked at the end of the day. It's taken a while but it seems there are 4 issues, all related to school (she had just 1 accident over the easter holidays).

Firstly she's terrified of toilet bugs. It doesn't matter how many times we tell her that washing her hands after going to the toilet kills the germs, she thinks she's going to get a bad tummy. (There was some stuff about her sucking her thumb which really upset her and I wonder whether that was used as some sort of incentive by her teacher.)

Secondly the nursery toilets are used by 30 3 and 4 year olds who have varying levels of control. By the end of the day they're in a terrible state, and DD would rather wet herself than have to use them.

Thirdly, DD thought that if she didn't drink anything, she wouldn't need to go to the toilet. Of course, that's not how it works, and her wee has been really concentrated by the end of the day and she's unable to hold it.

Finally, the structure of the afternoon means that there's no natural break for the children to go to the toilet, and the staff are very reluctant to prompt children to go. DD doesn't want to miss out so she's not going when she needs to.

Last week I spoke to her teacher and asked that she gently remind DD to drink water throughout the day and to go to the toilet. It happened for one day, DD came home dry, all was well.

Today she's come home with a reward chart - only because she was excited for us to see it. Had she not been bothered we'd be none the wiser. She gets stars for going to the toilet and at the end of the day can play with some particular toy that she loves. I'm seriously unhappy about it. I don't agree with reward charts, and am annoyed that the school have implemented one without even a mention to us. I saw her teacher this morning and she didn't say a word.

So, AIBU about this? Should I say something to the school?

She did it plenty of times between September and February.

The thing is with this is the ultimate aim is to get your dd to use the toilet without being reminded.
It's fine for the teacher to remind if it's a short term thing, a couple of days, but they may have:
A to remind to go to the toilet
B to make sure they go to the office at 12:00 to take their medicine
C whose dm has asked to make sure they wear their jacket at lunchtime
D who has a cold and df said it sometimes goes to his ears so look out for him holding his ear
E who... well you get the picture.

I think the reward chart is the best way to do this. Because she needs to get into the habit of taking herself to the toilet, not having to be reminded every time. I went through this with dd2-she'd go as long as she was reminded, but otherwise would forget when she was playing. Reminding was not the answer because she then depended on someone else to get her to think if she needed to go. Reward for going-even though that meant she often went more often than she needed to -was much better because it taught her to think about whether she needed to go.

As a teacher, these kind of issues are really difficult. You are trained to teach and this is essentially a health issue and whilst the teacher is trying to do her best, it could be that she feels a bit out of her depth. There are different theories (if they can be called that!?) around toilet training. Some, I believe the author of the gentle parenting blog, suggest that continually reminding children is not a good idea and they have accidents when they are learning and the role of the adult is basically to clear it up and the child will learn themselves. Maybe the school think that way is best? It is a shame you don't have a health visitor as they can be great with this kind of thing. Why not speak to your gp, as often they can refer to the incontinance nurse who can liaise with the school and may be the best way to get the problem addressed.

She did it plenty of times between September and February.

Well, yes, but she's not doing it now and she needs to learn to do it elsewhere.

or er they could just get a janitor and eliminate the need for unnecessary medical staff and star charts.

last time.i checked encouraging kids to use filthy shit covered toilets was not mentioned in any parenting manuals.

And now you are bothered about me missing a question mark when quoting you (for some reason the site doesn't switch to italics when I use punctuation so I missed it out).

You sure you are as laid back as you think you are?

I still say you need to chill out

A cleaner may be the solution but as the children will have got older and likely better at using the toilets since September, the toilets could well be cleaner now than at the start of the year, when the op's dd used them happily. I don't think it is unnecessary use of medical staff in lots of places it would be very routine for HVs or equivalent to help with toilet issues in under 5s.

-AIBU?
-Yes
-"no I am not and here's a link to why"
-link is not scientific
-IANBU
-You are just coming across as a bit weird now...
-No YAALLU
-Well stop posting on here then and go and talk to people who share your (fairly unorthodox) views
-No I will stay here until the whole world agrees with me and laws are made that everyone must be gentleparents even the common folk in the valleys
-wake me up when it's over...

Are there any other schools she can go to?

Sadly not. It's the catchment Welsh medium school.

A cleaner may be the solution but as the children will have got older and likely better at using the toilets since September, the toilets could well be cleaner now than at the start of the year, when the op's dd used them happily

I have worked in pubs and catering. trust me some people never get the hang of toilets. seen plenty of shit and piss on floor over seats etc from adults.

The school could easily have become more busy or the staff member that used to do it has left, or there could be one or two children who need more supervision and aren't getting it resulting in it being worse .

clean facilities are a basic right in education and employment establishments. how many of you would accept shit being left on the floor or having loos closed off all day just because your boss promised an extra fiver a week for the bother.

why do we expect kids to put up with this. and why does any op who dares question the state of loos or the attitude of teachers or god forbid the quality of the food get labelled as difficult and a PITA. I would be hugely pissed off if my dd was expected to eat shit or use filthy toilets.

There is a famous educational experiment on praise & reward in the classroom. (I'll go rummage on the internet for it). 2 'average' ability groups were picked. One group was praised/rewarded the other group wasnt. The performance & self esteem of the unpraised/unrewarded group dived. Further recent studies have proved its more important to praise the effort than the achievement (otherwise they turn into 'goal/winner' junkies) but from what i observed when teaching , that was mostly the case anyway at primary level. Teachers arent all daft you know. They keep up with current educational trends etc.

I am surprised the OP wasnt more picky re a nursery if she has real issues with positive reinforcement as its very widespread and you would be hard put to find a nursery that doesnt. And v small children do like/react well to a 'concrete' reward like a chart/sticker, rather than just verbal cues. As to the toilet issues the DD needs another sit down session re the germ issue thats bothering her and the school caretaker/cleaner needs a word.

OP, I am sorry to have to tell you this... but you will be the laughing stock of the staff room at your children's school! I can only imagine how the teachers must feel when they see you coming...

Speaking as a mother of 3, Schools are basically wanting round pegs for round holes. They start shaping the kids as soon as possible because it's easier when they are younger and the high child to adult ratio means that unless there are SEN they use the same method for everyone.

If you want a more flexible approach then you need to pay a private school, home ed or delay formal schooling until it's legally required to send her.

In the case of the mum wanting to send in diluted juice I'd advise that she gets a letter from a doctor. It won't magically change things but will strengthen her position.

It's normal for kids to be responsible for taking themselves to the loo. Not every child is on the same toilet schedule and if they did group visits to toilets then plenty of parents would see that as a waste of learning (through play) time.

It's very common for kids to be wary of "strange" toilets. Maybe have a chat about getting an adult if the loos are messy or find another cubicle if the loo isn't clean.my kids definitely had the odd accident but learned how to stay dry.
All my kids had a lesson in nursery on how to/why we wash hands/blow noses.they aren't particularly clever but knew about germs and quickly got into the habit of antibacterial gel before fruit time.

Round pegs in round holes? So we all have to learn to deal with filthy disgusting toilets so that we can be educated. I must have missed that bit.

I don't have issues with positive reinforcement. It's de rigour at home. DD had no problems using the toilets at school for several months. I couldn't have forsees what's happening now. I'm not sure how I was magically supposed to know that they might use reward charts to deal with an issue I didn't know was going to happen.

I understood there to be a reciprocal arrangement, having signed the home-school agreement. They ask us to do stuff, we do it. I don't think any of my actual requests have been unreasonable or difficult to consider, and I've bitten my tongue on a lot of other stuff so as not to cause problems for them or DD.

I'm not sure how I was magically supposed to know that they might use reward charts to deal with an issue I didn't know was going to happen

So you dont like reward charts and they should have consulted you first? They didnt make it a drama, they just pro-actively implemented a bog standard tried and tested strategy. And it worked. Terrible.

Do you really expect school to run every little thing they do past you?

I share your concern about star charts and rewards as a principle, OP, especially when it comes to teaching morality and developing a child's own sense of right and wrong - and dare I say, self-discipline? The best teachers I've seen use rewards sparingly, as a means occasionally to establish positive relationships with children, where children wanted to do as they were told - and once those relationships have been established there's little or no need for the extrinsic rewards. I've also seen rewards used really badly by teachers who've been unable to establish good relationships and have to fall back on endless extrinsic 'motivators' which the children soon see through.

However, in this instance, they're trying to help your DD establish habits, or at least unlearn the habits she seems to have got into since starting school. I think reward charts are OK for this purpose - it's not about learning right from wrong but getting habituated into a set of physical behaviours. I'd be inclined to say nothing at this point. If later on you think reward charts are being misused in a way that detracts from your daughter's moral development, that's the time to say something.

"I want you to desist from using star charts, they are detracting from my daughter's moral development" Please go and say that to your child's teacher morningtoncrescent62 and please come back and post about the response!

I think your DD is doing her best at her young age to make it clear she finds the toilets so disgusting she hates using them. If they are as bad as you say, then I don't blame her. Which is why I think the reward chart is strange. Sort out the problem with we and poo all over the toilets and if she still has issues, then consider a chart.

How do you know the toilets are so bad and have you mentioned this to the staff?
I thought they were cleaned by a staff member during lunch time, that happens round here.
I think you have to suck it up tbh OP, the schools make the rules these days and you don't really get a say in their policies or procedures.
I liked the pp who summed it up nicely, they want round pegs for round holes.
The dc have to fit in, one way or another.

As I've said a few times I have seen the toilets at the end of the day and there's no way anything happens to them at lunchtime. I believe they get cleaned after school and that's all. Teacher has mentioned that most children will "go for a number 2" in the afternoon after lunch. DD will if she needs to, but for some reason with wee she will try and hold it for the whole afternoon rather than go.

The reward chart has worked for 2 days (and she was desperate for the loo on the way home, so there was definitely some hanging on today). So I'm not sure I'd call "success" just yet!

I don't think I'd want to use those toilets either, OP. And I am old enough to be able to "hover" rather more successfully than your DD.
If she was reliable for 2 years and then has suddenly started wetting herself and the toilets are filthy, then giving her a star chart is tackling the wrong problem.

Thank you. That's kinda the point that's been made. But no, some posters still think I'm being unreasonable.