School using reward charts

[DisappointedOne]

I'll try and keep this short. DD is 4.5 and at a school nursery full time. She has been out of nappies for 2 years without problems.

Since February she's been wetting herself at school. Usually just a very tiny damp patch on her pants. Other times she's been completely soaked at the end of the day. It's taken a while but it seems there are 4 issues, all related to school (she had just 1 accident over the easter holidays).

Firstly she's terrified of toilet bugs. It doesn't matter how many times we tell her that washing her hands after going to the toilet kills the germs, she thinks she's going to get a bad tummy. (There was some stuff about her sucking her thumb which really upset her and I wonder whether that was used as some sort of incentive by her teacher.)

Secondly the nursery toilets are used by 30 3 and 4 year olds who have varying levels of control. By the end of the day they're in a terrible state, and DD would rather wet herself than have to use them.

Thirdly, DD thought that if she didn't drink anything, she wouldn't need to go to the toilet. Of course, that's not how it works, and her wee has been really concentrated by the end of the day and she's unable to hold it.

Finally, the structure of the afternoon means that there's no natural break for the children to go to the toilet, and the staff are very reluctant to prompt children to go. DD doesn't want to miss out so she's not going when she needs to.

Last week I spoke to her teacher and asked that she gently remind DD to drink water throughout the day and to go to the toilet. It happened for one day, DD came home dry, all was well.

Today she's come home with a reward chart - only because she was excited for us to see it. Had she not been bothered we'd be none the wiser. She gets stars for going to the toilet and at the end of the day can play with some particular toy that she loves. I'm seriously unhappy about it. I don't agree with reward charts, and am annoyed that the school have implemented one without even a mention to us. I saw her teacher this morning and she didn't say a word.

So, AIBU about this? Should I say something to the school?

For some reason witnessing a child poo on the floor and another walk it through the class room has given her an anxiety about the toilets. I have seen them at the end of the school day and they're not in a good state. Such is life with 3 and 4 year olds who are generally just expected to get on with it

To be honest in preschool this shit sometimes happens. The vast majority of preschoolers aren't bothered by unsanitary conditions.

You sound very particular about a lot of things (if I'm honest you sound a bit precious). Is it possible you are very anxious about school, the hygiene, lots of new children, the reward charts. Could your anxiety be rubbing off on your daughter.

I think you should try and focus on chilling out, both you and your daughter. If my dd had seen a load of poo walked around her classroom she would have been in fits of laughter (she's 4).

and the teacher has point blank refused for the parents to provide heavily diluted juice

Because when spilt, it's sticky, and ruins books.

"My child won't drink water, they can only drink juice" is a particular favourite of local newspaper sadface stories, in which women with hair scraped back in scrunchies are photographed on sofas with their equally sadfaced child. Ten years later (someone should look for the correlation) they're starring in stories, with the same faces about being suspended for dying their hair blue.

Whats wrong with a reward chart? Reinforcing good behaviour is never a waste of time. When she is older, both socially and at work certain traits and achievements will get 'rewarded' either with praise, popularity or with status/. Ex nanny and ex teacher here. You think schools have an 'always have a reward' ethos? Seriously? Its called positive reinforcement actually and there are reams of studies that show its success academically , socially (and at work) in motivating and learning.

You can reward behaviour, academic achievement, positive personality traits etc etc etc. Rewards and consequences are a huge part of life, never to young to learn.

Except for the people who can't get to the nursery at lunchtime and therefore have to put their children into daycare with substantially worse outcomes. But I suppose that's the children's fault for not choosing parents who care, eh?

So some parents get full time school and others get 10 hours. It's a lottery depending on where you live and how many other children of the same age are in the area. I'm not sure the parents who draw the short straw have to drop off children and pick them up again after 2 hours are "uncaring".

But fine. Whatever. I'm done arguing with you now.

*For some reason witnessing a child poo on the floor and another walk it through the class room has given her an anxiety about the toilets. I have seen them at the end of the school day and they're not in a good state. Such is life with 3 and 4 year olds who are generally just expected to get on with it

To be honest in preschool this shit sometimes happens. The vast majority of preschoolers aren't bothered by unsanitary conditions.

You sound very particular about a lot of things (if I'm honest you sound a bit precious). Is it possible you are very anxious about school, the hygiene, lots of new children, the reward charts. Could your anxiety be rubbing off on your daughter.

I think you should try and focus on chilling out, both you and your daughter. If my dd had seen a load of poo walked around her classroom she would have been in fits of laughter (she's 4).*

I suspect it wasn't a hilarious situation because the extent of the trailing meant all of the children had to stay outside for the rest of the day. Something about it stuck in DD's mind and has caused an issue. Clearly she's in need of a lifetime of psychiatry now.

I'm far from precious, nor am I anxious. Clearly I shouldn't give a passing thought about DD between 8:45am and 3:15pm - anything goes there - and should be happy to have my arm twisted to pay for food she's not eating. Thanks for clarifying that.

So my advice to you was I think you should try and focus on chilling out, both you and your daughter

And your response to that is - a jokey clearly she's in need of lifetime psychiatry

I said you should chill out, I wasn't implying your daughter needed psychiatric help.

You seem to have a habit of overreacting to very small non issues. The trouble when you overreact to the minor stuff it means people ignore the genuine concerns too.

I still think you need to chill out.

I think the nursery should be taken to task on the hygiene in the toilets. I don't think there is anything wrong with reward charts as such. But I appreciate why some folk think they are a bad thing. I agree that it is not entirely in your DD's hands as it were. The nursery could change a few things. Like toilet break in afternoon.

If i were any more chilled out I'd be unconscious.

I agree with makeitacider that it sounds like there are two issues; you sound like you lack confidence in the teacher and you have concerns over the reward chart.

I will bow to other posters with more knowledge about the article you have linked to, but even if you accept it at face value, the argument presented is that reward charts don't work in the longer term. They are suggesting that behaviour modification will revert when rewards are no longer available. But with toileting the result - being dry and clean - is a reward in itself. Do you really think that your DD will regress once she is no longer being given a sticker?

The Teacher issue is trickier, and I feel for you. What would need to happen to make you feel happier about this situation?

OP seems to be getting a bit of a hard time with this. I don't think her little one is unreasonable in not wanting to use loos in an unpleasant state. I think most of us have probably gone into a public loo at some stage in our lives, presumably because we feel we need to, and then walked out as we weren't happy using them. I think it is something the school need to think about and personally I don't think it is horrific to expect a teacher or TA to put a mop across a wet floor or are we all being snobby about them being above that sort of thing? If they have their own loos as part of the set up I would expect it to be kept in a usable state. I'm not talking about them taking time to go in and clean the loos, polish the taps etc but flushing the loo and mopping up puddles isn't exactly beyond them. After all if you choose to work with pre school children puddles and runny noses go with the job.

Good job my daughter didn't go to school there, she gave up thumb sucking at 11. I would have wiped the floor with a teacher who ridiculed her about it, maybe I could have cleaned the loo floor at the same time.

From a personal point of view I think sticker charts are over used, any childhood issue the answer seems to be a sticker chart. Wait till they get cynical, I remember one of mine at about six suggesting we just buy a packet next time we were in Smiths at it would save the bother. So like many things in life if we over use things they lose their usefulness.

As to expecting rewards my DGS had a chat about this at the weekend. Apparently his other granny has promised him a present if he passes his 11 plus, what was I getting him. I asked him why he was taking the exam and he said how much he liked the school, his friends wanted to go there, his parents said it was a good school. Great I said, what am I getting out of it? He looked puzzled and then said, nothing. So why should I give you a present for getting what you want? Disgruntled GS couldn't think of an answer.

How do you think the teaching staff experience you OP? Was it the same staff member who you'd complained about re the thumb sucking/germs and the religion issue? Seriously your DD is only in the nursery class and I imagine you are well on your way to being labelled a royal pain in the arse in the staff room (despite supposedly having a really good relationship with the head), learn to let the little things go and you're daughter will have a smoother ride through the school. Your attitude to the teacher and the unmotivated PTA and the other parents who you are assuming don't care about their DC's education will wind people up.

I will bow to other posters with more knowledge about the article you have linked to, but even if you accept it at face value, the argument presented is that reward charts don't work in the longer term. They are suggesting that behaviour modification will revert when rewards are no longer available. But with toileting the result - being dry and clean - is a reward in itself. Do you really think that your DD will regress once she is no longer being given a sticker?

She had no need for stickers or incentives for 2 years. This regression only occurs at school. So I suspect the regression could well happen again once the stickers stop if the other issues aren't addressed.

The Teacher issue is trickier, and I feel for you. What would need to happen to make you feel happier about this situation?

I'm just counting down the weeks until July now. And hoping that the reception teacher isn't a carbon copy of the nursery one!

Are the reward charts a new thing as surely when you researched them as an option for your DD you asked questions about ethos on discipline and behaviour expectations? You will have a long search to find a nursery that doesnt do stickers, reward charts or 'certificates' as positive reinforcement for behaviour, achievement or social skills.

And the chart you don't like is working. The staff probably did child psych 101 as part of their training so can't be totally inept as to the way forward for the bumps along the way at this age, so why are you so unhappy?

How do you think the teaching staff experience you OP? Was it the same staff member who you'd complained about re the thumb sucking/germs and the religion issue? Seriously your DD is only in the nursery class and I imagine you are well on your way to being labelled a royal pain in the arse in the staff room (despite supposedly having a really good relationship with the head), learn to let the little things go and you're daughter will have a smoother ride through the school. Your attitude to the teacher and the unmotivated PTA and the other parents who you are assuming don't care about their DC's education will wind people up.

Yes, it's the same staff member (although I've also had a chat with the head teacher about the religious stuff). There's only 1 teacher. I haven't gone in all guns blazing (the letter about the thumb sucking was very much a last resort because of the amount of upset it caused DD. And as I say, we got a full apology for that.). I haven't complained about the religious stuff, nor have I wailed and moaned about it. Teacher knows we are completely uncomfortable with it, but don't feel it's in DD's best interests to be withdrawn from the group several times a day. Teacher was considerate enough to ask whether we were happy with a line given to DD for the xmas concert about mary and joseph, and that we've no problem with anything being presented as "some people believe". We deal with anything else that comes up at home, even though I think she's completely out of order for doing it but now the head is aware and can take steps as he sees fit. Again, we'll have to see what happens when she moves up to reception.

I don't know who has mentioned toilet germs (there are 4 teaching assistants in the class too), but again when dropping DD off I've mentioned that she's said she wet herself because she's worried about the germs in the toilet, and that I've told her that she just needs to wash her hands after going and any germs will be gone so that they can reinforce that if necessary. (I hoover and clean loos about about once a month - there's no OCD or concern about germs at home!) I've not made any sort of deal about it.

Presumably I should just throw DD through the school door and nod appreciatively each morning rather than interact with the staff!

If you do have the same issues with the reception teacher will you start looking at the obvious common denominator?

I don't think you should just throw your DD through the door each morning, but it depends what your 'interaction' consists of and TBH if it's every morning it may become a bit waring for staff, if every one of the 30 or so parents was talking to them each morning they'd not get much done.

*Are the reward charts a new thing as surely when you researched them as an option for your DD you asked questions about ethos on discipline and behaviour expectations? You will have a long search to find a nursery that doesnt do stickers, reward charts or 'certificates' as positive reinforcement for behaviour, achievement or social skills.

And the chart you don't like is working. The staff probably did child psych 101 as part of their training so can't be totally inept as to the way forward for the bumps along the way at this age, so why are you so unhappy?*

There wasn't much in the way of research to be honest. It's the catchment welsh medium school. The only other choice would have been the catchment english medium school.

I did ask (as I've said upthread somewhere) about how they discipline. They gave some information about a chair they ask children to sit on and think if they do something wrong (but all the children call it a naughty chair) which I wasn't very happy about, but didn't say anything. DD hasn't been on it. They said they were very keen to praise children for good behaviour and trying their best. No mention was made of reward charts, and it's not something I'd ever have known to ask about. Neither have they ever mentioned stickers for eating all of their lunch (and again, given what a bad idea that is I wouldn't have expected them to do it so it didn't occur to me to ask).

What do you mean, PeachyPants - a school which clearly doesn't listen sufficiently as the common denominator?

Because based on what the OP has said, I don't think she's the problem at all.

If you do have the same issues with the reception teacher will you start looking at the obvious common denominator?

Well, the reception teacher isn't old enough to have had the "30 years' experience" of the nursery teacher, so we'll see.

But bring it on if you have more you'd like to share.

I don't think you should just throw your DD through the door each morning, but it depends what your 'interaction' consists of and TBH if it's every morning it may become a bit waring for staff, if every one of the 30 or so parents was talking to them each morning they'd not get much done.

Did I say it was every morning? It's been more frequent over the past few weeks because of DD's issue (once or twice a week maybe), but before that I probably had a 2 minute chat - very much along the lines of "how's things?" - once a fortnight. And they say they want parents to be involved.

I hate reward charts and the endless stickers, but I think it's just something you have to suck up when your child starts school. I get the objections to them, and share them, but I also don't think they will cause damage. I looked at it as a positive in that my child is exposed to different systems and views, and if I believe in the way I do things at home then that's all that matters and them experiencing other ways of doing things doesn't invalidate or overwrite what I do.

I think that level of involvement is appropriate but I do think the fact that you have had so many issues with the school in a short period of time is indication that something's wrong and I think that is likely to be at least in part your own expectations and behaviour. I don't think teachers/nursery nurses telling a child to stop sucking her thumb and pointing out the hygiene issues around this or teachers using start charts to help reinforce visiting the toilet sound inappropriate.

disappointedone I agree with you there. Let's assume that your DD won't use the toilet mainly because she dislikes sitting on a wet toilet seat. Teacher brings out reward chart and says that once it's full, she can have a prize. DD really wants that prize, so she puts up with her dislike of the wet toilet seat and uses the toilet.

But once the reward chart has gone, what incentive is for there to use the toilet? I guess it depends on whether she'd rather sit on a wet seat or have wet pants- and let's face it if keeping her pants dry was that important to her then she would already be using the toilet regularly!

Whereas if they could take some measure to ensure the toilets were clean and dry- for example I used to go into nursery and mop the floor and wipe the seats at lunchtime in return for finishing a little earlier- then once the reward chart had gone DD would be in the habit of using the toilet and wouldn't be put off again by the wet seats.

Just out of interest, are there separate toilets for the boys? Do they have a urinal? Because in my experience (of cleaning the toilets!) it is boys learning to stand that cause the majority of mess on the seat. Could standing boys be prompted to lift the seat up? (Maybe with a picture on the wall)

The other common issue is more easily sorted- even if the seats are low level some children struggle to get on and off the toilet properly, they will perch on the edge meaning they wee or poo on the seat/floor. Putting steps in each cubicle will help.

Failing all of that, what about a portable toilet seat for your DD, it could live in a bag on her peg and she could fetch it herself when she needs to go.

For the 'toilet bugs' maybe a practical demonstration would help? I bet cbeebies Get Well Soon would have an episode to help show her how hand washing works!

For people asking what's wrong with reward charts and saying you get rewarded throughout life, I don't like teaching children that you behave in certain ways in order to get stuff. That's a terrible thing to teach. My child's school used a prize to 'motivate' children to do something for charity!!!!

It teaches a 'what's in it for me?' mentality, and has been shown to reduce motivation and compassion and ethical behaviour. I want my child to help clear up because that's the responsible and decent way to behave, not because there's a reward. There is plenty of jobs that need doing in this life for which there is no external reward, and we wonder why there are so many bad partners who won't do the family jobs that are tedious and thankless.