AIBM to not let ds2 4 wear his Elsa dress out anymore due to twattish sniggering parents

[NellysKnickers]

Ds2s hero is Elsa. He loves her and Frozen. He also loves mud, dinosaurs, trains and his bike. He wore his Elsa dress to pick up ds1 from school today. I'm shocked by the amount of parents giggling and pointing, I expected a bit from kids who dont know any better but adults? ?? I'm torn between being upset and wanting to pinch them in the face ( obviously I would never do this in reality) Why is it that people think it's ok to laugh at someone a little bit different, Dh just says they are a bit thick!

Home would you be happy with the 4 year old boy wearing a non fancy dress outfit of shirt, tights and jumper then? It's just the 'frivolous' fancy dress you have a problem with?

Tom because when males dress as women, it is for humour and usually humour of a slapstick and silly nature. I have laughed at pantomime dames because we are supposed to. A boy wearing a costume to elicit giggles would be funny. A boy wearing a princess dress in all seriousness is ridiculous.

5 it is entirely possible not all children are as hard on their clothes as mine are :) but on the school run mine often run, play, call on at the park on the way back, have an ice cream on a Friday in summer and a hot chocolate in winter on the way back. All things guaranteed to destroy an Elsa dress at this end :)

Hey it was only about 70-80 years ago that boys stopped being dressed in frocks as standard until they were 6ish. Sometimes I wonder how that abrupt change came about.

Anyway, I day let him dress up as a girl character if he wants. Lord knows I used to do it. I wanted to be the White Power Ranger, not the pink or the yellow. I also wanted to be Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer and Simba. Bit of a species jump there as well as a gender one.

I'm perfectly normal now Your DS will be fine.

Just tights? I wouldn't allow a child of either sex out of the house wearing just shirt, tights and jumper personally.

I wouldn't say I necessarily have a problem with 'frivolous' fancy dress: I wouldn't permit it myself in either a son or a daughter. I would not permit my son to wear clothing that is obviously and explicitly feminine but such items tend to be impractical and as such I would steer a girl away from them most of the time. Flouncy frocks are wedding attire here as a rule. For my daughter, I feel I should add! :)

We cycle to school, we traipse over a field and stop at a park also, our tinkerbell dress survived this plenty of times. The elsa dress dd had is a bit too long for that kind of play but as she gets taller it will be fine. Believe me my five are hard in their clothes but as long as it's practical for what they are doing its fine. So captain America and iron man are often worn out, as is scooby doo and shorter style fancy dress that won't get in the way when running and climbing.

skirt, sorry, typo.

Great post Lurcio.

DS used to do this. He loved Disney Princess until he was about 6. He would put a princess dress on over his clothes and go tearing about in it.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

There's a lot of anger on this thread and I can't work out why. And yes, I have read the thread!

No, I wouldn't be putting my DS in a skirt :)

In danger of going round in circles but many feel that the mocking society is a poor reason to not indulge a little boys wishes.

I am afraid I believe it to be an excellent reason, because essentially it is what our society is made up of. I would not be afraid to say to a child 'no, because it would look silly in public.' I feel public laughter and derision is an excellent reason not to do something. It's for that reason I keep my clothing on even when it is very hot, do not urinate in the street even when I am bursting and yes, wear clothing that is suitable and appropriate for the occasion. Evidently, some see a princess dress for a little boy picking his older brother up as suitable and appropriate. I do not and can quite see why it elicited laughter.

I don't agree that men dressing as women is funny...they choose to portray women as outlandish caricatures of feminity. Likewise I didn't like the black and white minstrels and wouldn't dream of laughing at a white person dressing as some outrageous and outlandish caricature of a black person. Just because other people buy into this lame attitude, where males dressed as women are deemed somehow funny, doesn't mean I have to and I will not be passing that crappy attitude I to my children, either.

Ds3 went out wearing jeans and a purple tutu plenty of times, it's short enough not to get in the way. Dd now wears tutus quite often with leggings, again short so she can still ride her bike, climb etc. She loves them. She has been known to do the school run with a tutu and trousers plus an extra tutu on her head as a hat... Did I think it looked funny? Yes especially as she also had on a woolly bobble hat, but she was happy and no harm done.

My kids wear smart clothes when they need to and I just say that clothing needs to be weather and activity appropriate so on hot days the scooby doo outfit is a no no as they will swelter.

If you don't think it's appropriate for kids to wear fancy dress out that's your lookout bit you have given no good reason and it would seem (by the amount of little kids I see in fancy dress out and about) that your view is not one held by many here.

They are just children, being children. And anyone who laughs at (maliciously) or judges a child for wearing fancy dress is a bit of a twat and not a very nice person.

I don't know why men dressing as women is bad and open to ridicule. Women dress as men 99% of the time nowadays. I'm doing it right now

My ds wore girly dressing up clothes at home. If he'd wanted to wear them out I'd probably have gently discouraged him as I didn't want to put him in an uncomfortable situation. If he'd been insistent I'd have let him, but why make your children put up with other peoples intolerances, just to be "right on". Yes I know for the greater good, and all that, people need to challenge societal injustices, but I'm not going to do that with my ds, if I can easily avoid the situation.

Fwiw I'd have discouraged dd to wear fancy dress out too, whatever the gender of the outfit. Just think dressing up is better at home, full stop.

Trousers and all!

Indeed, and if a man chooses to dress in feminine clothing that is understated and suitable for the occasion, I would in all honesty be mildly surprised but also supportive.

However, that is a conscious choice and one that is appropriate, if unusual.

A young boy isn't making the choice to 'dress as a woman' - he is wearing a dressing up frock that is in all honesty somewhat ostentatious. As such, it does fit into the 'pantomime dame' category of being over the top and caricature like in nature. Unfortunately, a little boy can't understand this. An 8 year old could, and a giggling 8 year old putting on an Elsa frock to the delight of his peers is something I would laugh along with. 4 year olds don't have that level of understanding and as such life will be very confusing for them if it isn't gently explained.

Really, the reason you don't urinate in the street is because people might laugh? Your comparisons don't really stand up.

Increasingly it's clear that when you say 'society' you really just mean 'you'.

DS like fairy wings too. He liked them when he was on his bike.

The thing is he was so engrossed in whatever make believe world he was in he would never have noticed stares or sniggers.

It was just a bit of fun.

For someone who has said they are vocal about challenging gendered toys and roles, I find it really hard to see why you would have a problem with a boy wearing something 'overtly feminine' like a skirt? So he can do take on roles that society thinks are 'only for women' but he can't wear a skirt? What is the difference?

and as such life will be very confusing for them if it isn't gently explained

Whereas I'm teaching my daughter that the opinions of people she doesn't seek out don't matter. If someone laughs at her in the street for what she wears it says FAR more about them, than it does about her. And she doesn't need to conform to whatever dress code little girls are "supposed" to wear - she can forge her own way and be proud. And no matter what she chooses to wear I say "cool, you look awesome, I love that". (because on the whole she does )

I never made ds3 wear his pink or purple stuff to be right on... He wanted to wear it and yes we worried for him. But we spoke to him about it, explained some people may be mean and said they would be wrong to do this but we wanted him to be prepared. As it was it has never been much of a problem, his friends accept him for who he is. The girls in his yeargroup often put his hair in bunches for him on dress up day. It's sort of surfer style length. Ds1 has his hair long, as in rock star right down his back. He has never had an issue with it, school rule to tie it back for science and PE etc. He is a quiet bookish, geeky kid (young man now) the sort that would be picked on sometimes, but it's not been an issue. Ds3 is the opposite, a happy, outgoing child who is very confident in himself, he has a wide circle of friends and gets on with anyone. I suspect this has helped him 'get away' with going against gender norms. I don't know why but I am pleased he is happy to be who he is and I didn't quash that side to him by not allowing him to explore with dress up etc. I had a thread on mnet about getting him some new fancy dress stuff including a fairy dress as he had outgrown his tinkerbell one. He was about 7? And it was much debated, more balanced than this thread it has to be said but there were still plenty who thought it was tantamount to child abuse. He got a purple fairy dress, which Dd2(12) wore for dad's birthday party. He dressed up and organised the games etc for all his sisters little friends and was a complete star. I am sure many would be horrified at that but he chose to do it himself and dd loved it.

It was the threads on mnet about this kind of issue and toys being so heavily gendered that let to the start of the lettoysbetoys campaign which is now doing so well and bigger than any imagined.

At least he didn't notice.

My DS when just a bit older used to push a pushchair when we picked up older Sis from school bit later than usual- I had youngest in pushchair so he was copying. The pushchair was pink.

The comments and laughing at him from teenagers coming back from nearby secondary and random adults made him self conscious and upset over time as he began to notice. He stopped doing something he enjoyed - though he did for a time try with a toy shopping trolley we had lying around but wheels were less good. This wasn't me imposing anything - I told him he was fine with the pushchair.

He will ware nail polish at even at 8 - but it has to be dark this was only acceptable after I pointed out some teenage boys do this as a fashion statement -and most adults even GP accept him having it on every so often.

He was keeping very quiet about doing dance - tap and street - till we put on some old movies - like singing in the rain - and watch that BBC thing about history of dance - also helped he joined a school dance group with boys in it who stick at it.

There aren't things we are imposing on him but things he's choosing to do - and other people's reactions are putting him off. Oddly we've had less of that with our girls - or maybe it's more subtle gender role imposing on them.

This thread is pretty circular. I think one issue is that some people can't imagine a little boy choosing a dress and assume it must be the work of an attention-seeking mother. I can see why that would get a more dismissive response.

Also, some people are clearly much more prescriptive about school run attire and perhaps that's dictated by the norms of the particular school. At ours, little boys wear fancy dress and no one bats an eyelid. They tend to be all in one superhero suits so fairly practical. Consequently, I'd let a child of either gender wear weather-appropriate fancy dress on the school run. I wouldn't mind about it getting dirty or ice cream spills because as far as I'm concerned, play clothes aren't for keeping 'nice', they're for playing in so do have a shelf life. Most are machine washable though and manage just fine. I think play clothes don't need to be limited to home or parties because up to school age, kids are playing all the time so play clothes are fine all the time. I wouldn't allow a long dress on a climbing frame or similar for safety reasons. That might be why I see far more boys in fancy dress than girls because with the exception of one little girl who I've seen in a sparkly Spider-Man (Spider-Woman?) mask and a pirate outfit, all the little girls round here dress up in Disney princess dresses when they dress up so maybe they get worn less for these practical reasons. If you're not going climbing on the school run through, it's fine.

I haven't seen little boys out and about in dresses here but I have seen them dive on the dresses and sparkly shoes in the pre-school dressing up box and I've never seen an adult or child comment negatively on this.

I'm not especially fussed about small children dressing smartly for weddings. The last wedding my son went to, he was 2.5 and I put him in a nice shirt and trousers. At the swelteringly hot reception, he frantically started pulling them off and I put him in a shortie cotton pyjama set for his comfort. The only comments we received were adults wistfully remarking that they wished they could do the same!

I can see that if you are likely to meet ridicule that you would dissuade your son from wearing a dress. But I think if you personally find a small boy on a dress ridiculous or distasteful, this springs from nothing but prejudice, however you try to dress it up or justify it as coming from concern or protectiveness. Children tend to be much more tolerant and accepting than adults - we are all responsible for not teaching them prejudice and intolerance.

These threads always go the same way and the same arguments go round and round.

Here's what strikes me as interesting. Our society is clearly very invested in upholding a certain vision of masculinity. We use clothing is a signifier of the version of masculinity we want to hold on to. Think of how limited an adult male's fashion choices are - shirts, trousers, suits, jumpers, limited in the colour pallets/materials/patterns used. Virtually no accessories. Females are allowed to be far more expressive, experimental, innovative & transgressive in their styling.

For whatever reason, we're culturally invested in upholding this sober, authoritative, conservative vision of what it means to be male. And some people react in real horror when they see little boys transgressing that. As if we're afraid the whole structure of society will crumble if its not underpinned by this 'strong' patriarchal masculine norm.

I think I am probably like most people in that I can see, logically, that I should be comfortable letting kids wear whatever they want but I really wouldn't encourage a boy to go out in a dress. I can't see that it would 'harm' him to suggest he didn't. I wouldn't want them to wear there pyjamas either.

I have two adult boys and two adult girl and my boys literally never dressed in 'girls' clothing. They loved dress up but stuck to kings or animals or whatever. There were always 'girls' stuff around but they were simply not interested. My girls were not particularly 'girly' either - they didn't play with dolls and we didn't have make up etc.

I am not sure how much of an issue it is. I have never seen a little boy out in a dress but if I did I really wouldn't care. I am a bit sceptical of all these dissaproving looks and tutting from adults. It sounds a bit of an odd reaction.

Rose, 'I'll be sure to tell the Island council that on Thursday'

Er, OK, whatever you like.

what you appear to forget is that people have different values to you. You are completely unable to understand their POV as you are so entrenched in your own.

If I'm 'entrenched' in a POV that means I don't snigger and point at a four-year-old in a costume that makes them happy, then I'm happy to be entrenched.

And as 5madthings says, you seem to be confusing 'different values' with 'appalling behaviour.'

I'll say it again. Shame on anyone who thinks it's OK to point and laugh at a child for what they're wearing.

I'm very glad not to live on your island, Rose.