AIBM to not let ds2 4 wear his Elsa dress out anymore due to twattish sniggering parents

[NellysKnickers]

Ds2s hero is Elsa. He loves her and Frozen. He also loves mud, dinosaurs, trains and his bike. He wore his Elsa dress to pick up ds1 from school today. I'm shocked by the amount of parents giggling and pointing, I expected a bit from kids who dont know any better but adults? ?? I'm torn between being upset and wanting to pinch them in the face ( obviously I would never do this in reality) Why is it that people think it's ok to laugh at someone a little bit different, Dh just says they are a bit thick!

Every World Book Day at our junior school (2 form entry) there are always a handful of boys who turn up as female characters. The characters always attract lots of laughs and attention because the characters picked are ones like Gangster Granny (lots of bling) , Mrs Trunchbull (scary makeup) or Mrs Twit (wild wig) . I've not seen a princess like Elsa yet.

Ah! Let him wear it and fuck the begrudgers!

You're not a brilliant parent for permitting him to dress up in shock and horror a Disney dress....You are a brilliant parent because you don't say NO for pathetic reasons as has been outlined by some here.

I live in rural Ireland and I have one of 'those' sons that apparently don't exist in 'real life'. He's 7 and loves all things pink and princessy. Sometimes that includes dresses. I invite any one of those narrow minded fuckwits who disapprove to explain their reasons to my son.

I honestly pity the children of these parents.

BTW Op do you realise that your son will catch a dose of the homosexual don't you?

My 4 year old DS has his own Tinkerbell outfit. He looks adorable. I was a bit sad for him when his little friend didn't want to dress up as a princess too :(

Like most parents (I imagine) I try and always give a reason for saying 'no' to something.

No you can't run across the road - you have to walk sensibly and hold my hand because it's dangerous.

No you can't wear just swimming trunks and no shoes outside, because it's snowing.

No, you can't wear a princess costume outside of the house because horrible adults will judge and snigger and mock you?

Fuck. That.

Again, if anyone can come up with a decent reason why a boy can't wear a dress, one that doesn't amount to 'well, it's not right, innit? Dresses are fir girls!' I am all ears.

How about 'no, you can't wear a princess outfit outside of the home because it's not suitable clothing for the school run?'

Or would some of you let children wear jeans to weddings and funerals, princess dresses to school?

Clothing is important in society: when we actually boil it down it is silly as there is no 'reason' why informal clothing in formal settings isn't appropriate - it isn't hurting anyone, nor is walking around naked - but it's considered inappropriate and is frowned upon.

One of the biggest challenges I face as a parent is explaining sometimes silly societal rules to children, but I do, because to be frank here - I want them to fit in. I don't want them to be laughed at (as small children) jeered at (as adolescents) and judged and avoided as adults.

If, once those rules are understood, a person decides to flout them, I am fully supportive of that if it is an integral part of who they are. But that understanding can only come with age and maturity. As a parent, allowing your 4 year old sons to run around dressed as Tinkerbell or Elsa, is setting them up to be a pantomime dame, to be a figure of fun.

There's nothing 'wrong' with it. There's nothing 'wrong' with wearing a Nirvana t-shirt to a funeral, it isn't hurting anyone, nothing 'wrong' with going to work in a bikini - ditto - nothing 'wrong' with jeans at a wedding. It just isn't considered appropriate and would be frowned upon. Pretending these unwritten rules of society don't exist - or rather, scorning them and aggressively challenging them with "would you have the same reaction if - ?" - "what's wrong with a small boy wanting to be Elsa?" - completely misses the point that as someone saliently explained, men in women's wear is considered a 'joke.' As such, if you don't mind your son being a joke, and if he doesn't mind - go for it - but 4 year olds don't generally have such an advanced sense of humour and would, in all likelihood, get upset. I think setting them up for that under the guise of 'I am a GOOD parent because I allow my son to be HAPPY,' is bizarre.

My daughter would be happy if she never wore clothes, ate ice cream all day and got to yank the cats tail to her hearts content. She is gently steered away from choices that could harm her and encouraged to do things that do not. Incidentally, she will never be dressing as Elsa, Tinkerbell or anything other than a toddler on the school run!

I sometimes wonder if it's encouraged just to be different and start threads about how cool I am that ds wears his pink Mac and disney costume to school.

There are times when there is a dress code because of the solemnity of the occasion (wedding, though I guess that is dependent on the couple getting married, funerals are the same) or because it's an official rule - school uniform or sensible shoes for work. None of those things apply to the school run, or just going out to play.

Brilliantly said homeishappiness!

Indeed, the school run isn't considered to be a solemn occasion and as such it is up to the individual to decide what is appropriate for that sort of setting. In this instance, the child's mother has given the message that dressing up clothes are appropriate outside of the home - hers or someone else's - fine, that's her prerogative - and that a boy in an elaborate princesses' dress is similarly appropriate.

It does rather remind me of when I was twelve or thirteen and used to irritate my parents on purpose by slamming the door loudly on arrival: they would look up in irritation and I, innocently, would say 'What? What?'

By all means, allow your son to wear a dress. Do not pretend people will not notice; do not pretend conventions haven't been challenged; do not pretend subliminal messages aren't going through your child. There are indeed unpleasant and unkind people who will openly laugh and jeer and mock. There are also people who are not unkind and will be passive when faced with this but will bring it up later - it would almost certainly be an evening conversation here - 'today, some silly woman was walking down the road with a 4 year old boy dressed in a frock.'

I say this not to be unkind but my reaction would be, inwardly, one of 'how utterly ridiculous'.

I honestly cannot see how yanking a cat's tail is in anyway comparible to wearing fancy dress on the school run

My daughter wears a school uniform and has done since 3. She is now 8 and has developed her own sense of style and is pretty cool - she picks her own clothes and always looks fabulous. And why? Because she is comfortable and happy. If she wanted to wear her Elsa dress out she could.

I've also taught her that the best thing she can ever do is be kind about what

Oops posting fail

About what others do and wear. She won't be judgemental

Yanking the cats tail harms the cat and also DD when the cat scratches her.

Wearing an Elsa dress on the school run harms the dress when it is ruined, harms the child when he is upset his dress is ruined and further harms the child when he is mocked and laughed at.

There is a second consideration here of the elder son who was very kind and loyal to his young brother but may just have found himself answering some tricky questions about why his little brother was dressed as Elsa. Hopefully not and they didn't notice, or if they did, they were true Mumsnet children and barely gave it a second thought, or brought their belle, Ariel and Cinderella dresses to the school the very next day. Sadly, in the real world I suspect that this wouldn't be the case.

*'today, some silly woman was walking down the road with a 4 year old boy dressed in a frock.'

I say this not to be unkind but my reaction would be, inwardly, one of 'how utterly ridiculous'*

Whereas I would think what a fab mum allowing the child such freedom of expression without feeling the need to conform to societal norms. Plenty of time for that (if they want....) when they're older.

There's a chap who walks around my town who wears a dress. He's very, very obviously male. Doesn't seem to be transitioning as he has been the same for years. People have spat on him, thrown stuff at him. How fucking abysmal is that?

Utterly abysmal. I am completely intolerant of bullying and I am completely intolerant of the sort of behaviour you describe above.

But that is an adult choosing to wear a dress because presumably, wearing what he feels comfortable in is more important to him than the likelihood of verbal or physical abuse. A child does not have the same knowledge of societal norms and they need to have them explained - in a gentle and kind manner, naturally.

Sometimes, you have to know the rules in order to break the rules :)

Yes, brilliantly said, except all the comparisons are specious and don't allow any margin for children to exercise any control over their own lives. Choosing what outfit to wear is one of the few appropriate and safe decisions a young child can make on their own.

An occasion like 'the school run', where, er, a lot of children are walking along a pavement and back again, is also exactly the kind of outing where it really doesn't matter a damn what they wear, as they won't lose their job, screw up their wedding photos, disrespect a dead person, or in any way impact on others, other than to allow the weak minded an opportunity to exercise their sneering skills.

"Homeishappiness", but outside is the grey, joyless world of The Rules.

I encourage children choosing their own outfit as I think it is as you have said an excellent way of giving children some freedom and control.

However, there is a big difference between choosing which t shirt or jumper to wear and allowing a boy to wear a Disney princess dress.

If a child is allowed to wear exactly as he or she wishes 90% of the time, then appropriateness and taste and an understanding of the world don't just automatically happen. They usually learn them, often painfully, from others who as noted on this thread do not tend to always be kind about it.

My 5 year old ds wore pink nail polish to school. I felt I should explain to him that the other kids may laugh at him as they may think only girls should wear it and he needs to be prepared for that. He said he didn't care what they said and wore it anyway. He later to me a few kids commented on it but just questioning about who put it on him and he wasn't bothered by it. He also goes Irish dancing and is the only boy in his class. Again he doesn't mind and has a great time being the centre of attention with the girls cos he is a novelty. In my DS2 playschool the boys regularly dress up in dresses. The teacher told me that one father came in and saw his son in a dress and went mad over it. It's very sad to see reactions like that.

Is it just that it's dressing up clothes (And thus may 'get ruined') home? Would you allow him to wear a normal shirt and tights?

How about you spend less time explaining what is appropriate wear for the school run and more time encouraging your kids to believe that gender stereotypes need to be challenged? Because basically you, and people like you, are the fucking problem. You're the reason I might have to encourage my son to wear blue not pink and later on you'll be the reason he has to be told people might think it's strange if he wants to be a nurse or a hairdresser or a stay at home dad. And that means you're the reason other people's daughters will think they can't be scientists or soldiers. Don't blame it on 'society' when you're the one reinforcing this shit.

But if you can't wear as you like at 4 when can you? The norms will kick in at some point, the self consciousness, you don't have to meet them head on.

And sometimes, you never 'get it right', you spend your life trying to adhere to norms set by others and all it leaves you with is self doubt and unwillingness to try and fail.

I dressed absolutely normally, that wasn't the way I was unconventional, and was ridiculed for wearing glasses, the fact my mum didn't wear heels and make-up, the car my parents drove, getting good grades, having interests outside the usual. None of it bothered me because I was always backed up by my parents to have confidence when I did make my own choices, so it was water off a duck's back. Not literally, I didn't dress as a duck.

Don't blame it on 'society' when you're the one reinforcing this shit.

This. Spot on Soloman

I agree with Devora's well thought out and dignified posts up thread. The problem, as IfYoureHoppy so succinctly put it, is the reason you have to give to the child: "No, you can't wear a princess costume outside of the house because horrible adults will judge and snigger and mock you?"

OP, if you're still around, my DS (7) chooses to wear his hair long. (Note to the knuckledraggers on the thread - he chooses, I do not impose it on him as some sort of daft attempt to prove my impeccable Islington credentials.) He has been teased about it by class mates, and routinely gets assumed to be a girl by adults (even when dressed in stereotypically "little boy" clothes). I have stressed to him that I like him with long hair, but would equally think he looked great with short hair, and it is entirely up to him how he chooses to have it. And in addition we have had long conversations about bullying, peer pressure, stereotyping, role models with long hair (google image searches for footballers!) His teacher has been great, and his school friends, even the ones from quite conservative homes, are fine about it (I overheard one solemnly telling another child in the park "He's a boy. Boys can have long hair, you know.") The thing that used to bother him most was adults - though he now seems to shrug that off.

So I guess for us the strategy (4 may be too young) is to use it to talk about fitting in, peer pressure and the like - to explain that the quest to "fit in" is in some ways a pretty fruitless one, since if a bully wants to bully, they will always find something to pick on. It could be something you could easily change (like hair length), but why the hell should you? Or it could be something you can't change, like skin colour or glasses. So either way the strategy should always be: how do I deal with the bully's behaviour? In school, getting the teacher onside (schools should have decent and effectively implemented anti-bullying policies - it's near the top of my list for things I look for!), and learning how say, assertively, "no, that's not a fair thing to say," or to walk away if things look like escalating. And also about building up your child's self-confidence so they see themselves as okay, and the bullies as the inadequate skidmarks in need of fixing.

Ironically, Soloman, you couldn't be more wrong with that assessment of me. I have been vocal in the past and doubtless will again in the future about girls' toys in particular but also clothing and accessories encouraging a 'look pretty' mentality.

My issue with the boy in the dress is that it is ludicrous and ridiculous for ANY child to wear a princess dress on a school run. If my daughter said she wanted to be Elsa on the school run the answer would be 'tough' :) (phrased nicely!) I wouldn't be happy about it (or nail polish, to cite an earlier example) in either sex. Just the same, a boy in a Tinkerbell dress or with pink nail polish or similar is ridiculous. So silly assumptions are made about girls - that a blue flimsy dress is suitable attire for building an ice palace that women should paint their nails because our time is not valuable and is frivolous - and rather than saying 'no, not appropriate' we encourage this because after all - it challenges gender stereotypes? Right? Right?

No, it does not. Challenging gender stereotypes is when boys opt for child development as a GCSE (excellent) or become nurses (the profession of choice for my brother) or indeed girls in science doesn't amount to making a bath bomb with a toy chemistry set (one of my pet hates).

When it all boils down to how someone LOOKS - boy or girl - it turns a serious issue into a pantomime and a farce.

Unfortunately, as much as some sectors on here would love to believe that the plethora of Elsa-dressed boys is challenging stereotypes and breaking down walls, it isn't. If anything it is perpetuating the problem because it is so patently ridiculous. Pointing out politely that a boy studying child development is excellent as he will be a dad one day is likely to make all but incredibly dense people stop and pause and think. Walking to school with a four year old boy dressed as Elsa won't. No matter how much you might want it to.

But WHY is it ridiculous for a little boy to wear a costume of his favourite character?? WHAT is wrong with it? I just don't see it....but then I see girls and boys as equal and that things that typically girls might like are not a source of ridicule or mockery. I want my children to know that too. If I made a problem out of my little son wearing his Anna dress, what the hell am I teaching him? That girls are 'other' and for boys to be like them in any way is baaaaaddddd! Now THAT would be ridiculous, and I would fail him as his parent.

Why would fancy dress be ruined on the school run?!

My dd often wears fancy dress out, so does Ds4 and my elder boys did when they were younger. Some of our fancy dress stuff was bought for our eldest who is 15, it's been worn by five kids in all manner of places. Ds2 wore a buzz lightyear costume to London zoo. It's still fine. None had been ruined. They have got dirty. But that is what a washing machine is for! As long as the clothing is practical for what we are doing its fine. This is dd last week in her unicorn outfit, we went to the shops, she got smiles and comments, all lovely. The ops child is four! Like dd, if you can't wear fancy dress when you are four when can you? Sad state of affairs and the attitudes on this thread show exactly why some children bully others.

Thankfully that hasn't been the case for my kids, especially ds3 who loved pink and purple and frequently dressed as a fairy when younger. He was ten in Dec and all he wanted was a pink onsie which he got and on non uniform day when lots of the older kids where onsie to school he wore his. Not an issue, there was a whole variety of brightly coloured and themed onsie, just like in the infants on non uniform day thete are loads of kids that wear fancy dress. It's done the last day of term and the kids love it.