To wonder if benefit fraud is rife

[sam71xxx]

Was at my mums house on Thursday. Post came and 2 bills for my brother were in it. He has lived with his girlfriend for 3 years since moving out of mums. His girlfriend was a single parent to 3 children, living in a HA house. She does not work. Brother works full time earning £38k a year.

I asked why my brothers post was still coming to mums and she said that he is still officially living at her house so they can afford to save for a house deposit! Girlfriend claims as a single parent.

I was gobsmaked! I told mum it was very wrong that low paid people like me and my husband paid taxes and didnt claim a penny in tax credits while others played the system and that I can only dream of saving for a house deposit on a £30k a year combined income! She then got very upset and asked me not to report them (which I won't)

This is the third person in 6 months I have heard of doing this kind of thing (claiming as single). I am beginning to think it is probably more normal than I thing and I am the mug for not claiming as a single parent (I would be much better off!)

It's about time decent people who don't cheat and pay their taxes and don't commit crimes of benefits cheating are stopped.

Sirchenjin a site run by somebody with a bee in their bonnet does not for accuracy make.

You know, I don't know anyone defrauding the system, benefits, tax or otherwise.

Haven't read the full thread but where I live benefit fraud does appear to be fairly common. Especially the scenario in the OP where a single mum moves in a new partner but continues to claim as a single parent. However, I don't think this should mean benefits should be cut for all because of the dishonest few. Many people genuinely need the help they get from welfare. Maybe tightening up the rules & doing more checks so that it is harder to claim fraudulently would be better than the current plans to decimate the Welfare State which will only punish the needy & most vulnerable.

Totally agree with those saying tax evasion is a bigger issue but the powers that be would rather we fight among ourselves over trifling amounts while they stash away £££££.

Wherever you have a compassionate society you will always have a few people trying to defraud the 'system'. Why, though, punish the majority for the sins of the minority? The amount of fraud is a small cost to pay to ensure that the honest majority have a decent standard of living. The actual percentage of welfare bill spent on non-working, working age people, is between 2-3% - not large in the bigger scheme of things.

What I find more shocking is that 21% of the welfare budget is paid out in tax credits which seems to me to be in part the government subsidising employers paying poverty wages. When my dc were young you did not need tax credits because majority of people were able to earn enough to pay their way.

Housing benefit has also shot up due to lack of affordable social housing so the welfare system is subsidising private landlords.

The majority of the welfare budget, 46%, goes on retirement benefits.

Define rife...

If we assume that benefit fraudsters are human, as were the politicians who claimed outrageous expenses, or the bankers who collapsed finance institutions, I think morality goes out the window when you toy with money which comes from an unseen source.

Its human nature.

You can stick 2 fingers in the air, I probably would too if I was claiming benefits and being supported by the state whilst getting treated in holidays etc by parents. You seem not to see any problem with claiming benefits for rent and food etc whilst getting all the trimmings from parents

bamboo I presume this was aimed at me? Thanks for the stereotyping. Actually, I am a full-time teacher who owns her own home. I don't claim benefits for rent and food, therefore. I do get support with childcare costs, however. As for 'all the trimmings'...yes, my parents help me out because they want to. I am not sure what else you would like me to do? Not take the support offered by my parents? Or not take the support offered by the state?

It is, as I said, none of your business. I am a tax payer too. Or perhaps you don't get that single parents can also be tax payers? or that people on benefits can also be tax payers?

lotus and other posters who talk about doing the honest thing, I think the abuse of benefits that the OPs brother is taking part in is a symptom of the bigger issue of a broken system. The cost of living today is out of control. If families are not supported there will be no one to take over the next generation and the children we have wont be reaching their potential. This has a huge impact on us as a society. Not sure if rife is the right way to describe the frequency of this occurring because who knows what is really going on.

We as a society have an opportunity to effect change by pressuring our MPs and those in the House of Lords. Those MPs who are fraudulently claiming expenses should all be in jail just as those who fraudulently claim benefits should be too. It's stealing and it is wrong. If there was a stern punishment for it I think it would help eradicate the problem. If those who claim bankruptcy are denied from taking director positions so should those found guilty of fraudulently claiming benefits/expenses except I think it should be for life as fraud is far worse than bankruptcy.

Eg Pretty sure that you can have someone staying over for a certain number of days per week and it doesn't class as living together for benefits. So as long as they don't go above that number of nights they aren't committing official fraud (maybe moral fraud) - it wouldn't show up in the statistics - but they are 'playing the system' though?

Urban legend,sorry but there is no rule on amount of nights spent under the same roof.

For benefit purposes unless you fit certain criteria as long as you are maintaining other accommodation you are not LTAHAW no matter how often you sleep over at your partners.

ronald if you truly know a genuinely separated couple who cannot claim TC due to being under the same roof as there ex they need to see a benefit advisor the TC system has a ability to deal with this with a claim being paid out.

A lot of people saying report HIM, but actually as his dp is the claimant you are reporting her. Is she benefitting financially from having him there? Or is he, like pretty much every guy I know, just not willing to take on the financial responsibility of her dc? It's a great deal for the men in this situation, getting to live rent free and being able to save, but it's the woman who will potentially be caught/fined/imprisoned for what he is doing.

Ok need - I'll take your word for it ...
I have been told (this is a different situation) that for a house to be considered inhabited for council tax it has to be habitable(!) and you would have to sleep there at least 3 nights a week...
I know because we are refurbishing a house and it is taking a long time, so we are currently paying 100% council tax on the house we live in and 200% on the 'empty' one...would really make sense for DP or I to 'live' in the other one as soon as possible (doesn't have a kitchen or bathroom or heating at the moment!) until it is finished (and get a 25% discount on both ...)

People who claim dishonestly are thieves (as are VAT avoiders and other tax dodgers).

I know 4 families who dishonesly claim certain benefits - all family members non of whom are particularly skint.

I don't understand why it seems to be an acceptable thing to do and why so many posters minimise it or try and excuse it.

The fact that £1.3 billion is under claimed is a seperate issue.

Can someone explain why a discussion on people who claim benefits fraudulently, translates (to some) into bashing everyone on benefits?

Can I also point out that you do need to careful when assuming people are on benefits. I know my neighbours and parents at school are intrigued by me and dh. We always have questions about what we do. We run a business from home and work around the kids. Generally we are both there on the school run and are in and out of the house everyday.

People do assume we are on benefits and dd even got told at school that she was lying about a holiday, because her mum had said we don't have jobs. So, I can imagine people want to know how we can afford what we do as they assume we don't work.

So all when questioning 'how do they afford xyz' you should probably think 'i know nothing about them'

I just asked Siri "what percentage of benefit claims in the UK are fraudulent?" and once it had filtered out DS2's babbling, got a whole host of links.

I do wonder why an OP would ask a bunch of random people for data that's widely available with little effort.

I know a few people on my estate doing it and they are quite blatant about it, been in their house when they have discussed it, been on the dole myself as a single parent and now work. IMO yes it does go on, a lot. Not sure why anyone would want to defend it especially other's who have to claim IS/JSA/TC or are working and real single parents struggling to make ends meet when its giving them a bad name as everyone thinks we are all at it.

I see this girl, she has loads of money and her partner works full time in a decent job, always going out, buying new clothes and treating the kids, we have mutual friends who all seem to know about it.

unlucky that is an altogether differnt thing you are talking about council tax liability as opposed to benefits.

Seriously the you can stay at a lone parents house 3 nights per week (or any number of nights) it's urban myth. There is no such rule.

It is possible for a couple to spend no nights under the same roof and be treated as LTAHAW or to spend most nights under the same roof and not be dependant on the actual circumstances

shewept

I get this as well as my ex helps a lot with the kids and we are still friends, he does most of the school runs etc as i am at work, im sure some of them think we are on the fiddle as he doesn't work and only lives a few streets away from me.

Seriously the you can stay at a lone parents house 3 nights per week (or any number of nights) it's urban myth. There is no such rule.

under the newer rules you can be investigated for living apart and acting as a couple. I was told i was on sketchy ground for my ex watching the kids in my house instead of his if someone reported us. Because i work til 1am its easier if he watches them here then walks home when i get in but under the new rules this is not allowed

fifis

I would seek further advise from a specialist as that perticular situation is actually covered within the training manual and highlighted as a possibility not to be construed as fraud as a stand alone thing.

It is also not acting like a couple it's an NRP acting like a decent one.

You would have to be doing a significant amount of other things to be considered to be acting as a couple

Single parents are allowed to have sexual relationships and what not without having to instantly move in and be committed to a sexual partner

I did question it with my Lone parent advisor at the time when i was considering going back to my old job working nights to avoid using a nursery and working days as i don't drive and would find getting into town for a 9am start difficult, at this point we had been living apart for 6 years although he and his DM have full access to the kids as we all get on (didn't as a couple), she takes them to her house on the weekend shift, he watches them at my house on the other shift during the week but also does school runs as he drives, picks them up and drops them off. i did find it in a PDF somewhere and its a bit vague, i think she had to warn me when i said i was going back to my old job as it fits around 3 kids and i only do 2 8 hr shifts instead of say 4 4hr shifts, I think it mentioned holidaying together etc

Obviously I have not seen the post in question and am unaware of any poster expressing such views so I don't think this could be construed as a personal attack.

In general A view along those lines would more than likely only be expressed by a festering cunt of blue waffle magnitude so it would be fairly safe to treat the person doing so rather like one would treat a crumbly old bit of cat poo

fifis

I know the information you are referring to but the bit everybody misunderstands is that other than joint financial stuff everything cannot be used in isolation as evidence of LTAHAW the list contains stuff like socialising/holidays/future plans/friends and neighbours perceptions/chore devision that sort of thing.

The first bit that gets twisted in explanation is this is part of the Living Together As Husband And Wife assessment (LTAHAW) so actually living together is imperative for any of the rest of the assessment to apply.

The second bit is that doing one thing on the list (or even a handful) is not in itself evidence of anything other than a friendship obviously it depends on the combo of things you do (if living under same roof)

There are other rules for actual couples who live apart for certain reasons who without those reasons would live together as a couple things like working away,armed forces but these do not cover none couples or couples who would not live together.

Think about it logically. Let's use EatShitDerek ( not because I'm picking on her just because I missed her during her recent absence)

We are both SP I decide I enjoy her humour so invite her to stay at mine asa guest we plan a holiday and go out for a few meals we have a great time and decide to do this often soon we get to the point where I say ahh stay a few days longer lets bung your clothing in the washing machine so you have clean clothes and she very kindly watches my kids so I can have a bath,out of the goodness of her heart and to say thank you she takes my kids to school so I can have a lay in and because I think she's an all round good egg after I've taken her home I buy her a takeaway and give her a tenner as her electric is really low and I can't be arsed to make the journey back to mine until the next day.

Should she all of a sudden expect to be treated as if her and I are LT as if we are a couple?

The DWP/HMRC do not know we are not having sex they are not legally allowed to ask her if we are they are not even allowed to ask her which room I slept in.

We could not be considered to be LT because we obviously maintain different households and we could not be considered to be a couple because we are not. All of the things in my example are things that appear on the list it they are also things that would not be unusual for good friends to do or even for single very amicable co parents to do.