To wonder if benefit fraud is rife

[sam71xxx]

Was at my mums house on Thursday. Post came and 2 bills for my brother were in it. He has lived with his girlfriend for 3 years since moving out of mums. His girlfriend was a single parent to 3 children, living in a HA house. She does not work. Brother works full time earning £38k a year.

I asked why my brothers post was still coming to mums and she said that he is still officially living at her house so they can afford to save for a house deposit! Girlfriend claims as a single parent.

I was gobsmaked! I told mum it was very wrong that low paid people like me and my husband paid taxes and didnt claim a penny in tax credits while others played the system and that I can only dream of saving for a house deposit on a £30k a year combined income! She then got very upset and asked me not to report them (which I won't)

This is the third person in 6 months I have heard of doing this kind of thing (claiming as single). I am beginning to think it is probably more normal than I thing and I am the mug for not claiming as a single parent (I would be much better off!)

By the government's own estimation, 0.7% (£1.2billion) of all benefits money is lost to fraud. £1.3billion is unclaimed or underpaid.

Therefore, if benefits were only paid to the people who deserve them, the we would be spending £100million more a year.

Hardly 'rife'- if anything, we're a nation without a sense of entitlement. Even to things we're entitled to.

It's very normal. The stuff about bankers bonuses and MP expenses etc does seem to make it worse as it gives the impression "everyone's on the take" so it's more socially acceptable.

I never trust the figures about amount lost to fraudalent benefit claimants vs tax evasion/avoidance, it's impossible to calculate benefit fraud because people like hte OP don't report people, so her brother's DP won't be counted. It strikes me the sheer number of people who know someone who's just not reported/taken a bit more they could get vs the number of people who know someone who's been prosecuted is very different. I know several people I think might be claiming more than they should - I'd never report them though. I don't think anyone else would as long as they aren't massively taking the piss or bragging, so they'll probably never appear on any stats.

OP - don't report them, the family fall out would be hideous. But do tell them you think they are taking a big risk, that you think their behaviour is unacceptable, as do most people who are playing by the rules and struggling because of it like you - and perhaps they should tell your mother that this is actually one of those horrible dirty family secrets she should be keeping a secret. She doesn't seem to think it's something she should be hiding and feeling ashamed that she's enabling her DS to do - so sooner or later she might say something to someone outside the family who will report. She told you quite openingly, she didn't expect your reaction - she might well do that to someone else who won't have family ties to stop reporting because within your family, they've told themselves it's ok to do, so she's not remembering it's a secret.

Have they taught the DCs to lie that mummy's boyfriend just visits and doesn't live with them?

It's irrelevant really whether more is unclaimed or not. It's still dishonest to falsely claim benefits, however small, and more to the point it makes those people who are honest claimers, and those who don't claim, but work bloody hard for very little, feel cheated too! There are some bloody lazy buggers in this country that give genuine people in need of benefits a bad name. And for that we should be outraged!

More goes on than is caught and the systems for catching people need to be better. The amount of people that claim to be single but arent I would imagine is very high. There should be more on an incentive to report people and if caught it should negate the person ever being able to claim again. A slap on the wrist is not enough.

However it's not the only problem, we waste more in other benefit areas which can be controlled and cut far more easily.

theoretican does your policy mean that a couple who have 2 children together and live together will be assessed for benefits separately? So if one of the couple doesn't work they get unemployment benefits, tax credits and housing benefit even if the other partner works and earns £80k?

I disagreelittlefluffy, if a man is only interested in living with you and has no desire to support you children as a family that's not the kind of man worth having a relationship with.

I don't buy this idea that a man should be able to move in with a woman who has DCs without being prepared to be a famiy unit. It's not just about money, it's the mentality that "those are her children, not mine" that extends to all parenting. If you are going to live with a parent, you have to be prepared to parent those children - and that includes paying for things the family needs from your wages.

If you aren't prepared to take on a full step-parenting role, live elsewhere until the DCs have grown up and left home.

I don't believe it is 'rife'. Anyone who does this is in danger of going to prison. So if you get found out, the consequences are very serious. I also think that there is much more Big Brother going on than you realise. When I was on income support and had a boyfriend who did not live with me I used to get checked up on a lot. And after we broke up it all stopped. Coincidence?

Noef proper turning down extra hours at work to keep tax credits is not cheating.

I agree with soontobesix.

Not sure if rife is the right word.

Being economical with the truth, well I challenge ANYONE to say they are innocent of this.

I also agree with Mary though.

No I agree, poorly worded on my part. I think I mean the system is flawed and actually the lines between cheating , playing, intentions of the system are a bit blurry.

I don't recall ever committing fraud, and I must be one among millions. Saying it should be ignored because there is so much tax evasion going on is equivalent to saying that it is ok to shoplift from a big store because they won't notice. Theft is theft on whatever scale.

I agree that it would make more sense to change the system to encourage living together. Bet none of the seven shrieking at each other on the debate will do that, or any of the other bleeding obvious reforms that we need.

Tax avoidance is rife in multinationals. Tax evasion is not.

for every £1 lost of benefit fraud £4 is lost in tax avoidance - so maybe focus your outrage elswhere

This thread is about benefit fraud. If someone wants to start another about tax evasion they can. But there is no need to suggest that one should be ignored because the other is worse. They are both wrong.

Would it be ok for people to object to a the total £5 being lost through fraud/tax evasion, rather than the £1/£4 split? It all adds up after all.

"It's impossible to calculate benefit fraud because people like hte OP don't report people, so her brother's DP won't be counted"

The figure of £1.2bn is the government's own estimate of the amount lost to fraud, not the amount actually lost to fraud; that will be much lower.

Do you think the government is underestimating? That would seem unlikely. I think it's more likely that they have made benefit fraud part of the Zeitgeist in order to garner support for their political agenda. And, depressingly, it seems to have worked.

I'm not saying that it can't happen. But in my subjective experience, it's hard to find a man willing to take that on. It also, I think, puts the woman in quite a vulnerable position of having to be very grateful for that financial support, whereas if the dc were biologically the man's, it would be his duty to provide for them. Not sure if I worded that very well but hopefully you can see what I'm saying.

The exception seems to be if a woman has more dc with the new partner, from what I've seen. I don't want anymore dc, so that's not an option for me.

Mary that works until the man has children as well.

Hypothetically a man could end up having to pay for two children of his own and two stepchildren. I dont see how that can be deemed fair, or for a woman in the same position of course.

Sadly this is all too common. It's theft of public money and should be reported. Lots of people on less than half of what your brother earns are struggling along. It makes me furious.

I am really curious about how we know exactly what the fraud figures are?
Are they just the ones that are caught? Or the ones that are caught and then a percentage added? Or out of 10 we investigate 1 is committing fraud therefore 10% type of thing?
Just out of interest really...I would agree with the tax evasion thing. But...
On these threads someone says something about benefit fraud and everyone jumps in saying it is actually really low etc ...
Over the last few years I have known (to my knowledge) hardly anyone on benefits - I can think of three instances. Of those one (historical now) case of dishonesty - exaggerating someone's disabilities and claiming carer's allowance, another that I suspect may well be living 'separately to their partner' for financial reasons (and one that seems to be genuine).
In my life over the years I have known more people on benefits and the majority have been 'playing the system' to one extent or another - so in my experience it does seem quite high ....
Is there a difference in the figures between fraud and 'playing the system'?
Eg Pretty sure that you can have someone staying over for a certain number of days per week and it doesn't class as living together for benefits. So as long as they don't go above that number of nights they aren't committing official fraud (maybe moral fraud) - it wouldn't show up in the statistics - but they are 'playing the system' though?
If your brother has a room at your mums and stays there a few night per week he isn't committing official fraud.

Marmalade - there is no compulsion to live together. If a man isn't prepared for whatever reason (including other financial commitments) to be a step-parent, he's no business deciding to live with a woman who has children living with her.

Yes it does happen a lot. I know of about 6 at my children's school who do this. It gives genuine claimants a bad name. One family was visited after being reported by someone they fell out with. They have had to pay back every penny they got fraudulently.

I agree about crap systems that put people off working. I currently claim Carers Allowance as DS is really struggling. He is 12 and autistic with ADHD which means little sleep for me at the moment.
Having said that, there are periods of time when he is more settled and I can work. During those times I want to work and so far have always managed to find a job. Every time though I go about £20 a week over the cut off limit for Carers Allowance and I promptly lose it. I also lose all council tax help and most of my housing benefit. I get WTC during these times and my salary but end up significantly worse off financially.
Ive seen my Tory MP about this as it seems madness to be financially worse off. Not hopeful of any positive outcomes as he is staunch Tory and supports all the benefit cuts. I doubt he could care less and quite honestly next time DS has a settled time I may not bother looking for work even though I want to and could do so. Is that benefit fraud too?

Oh and like many people on here, I also practice tax avoidance by having an ISA. Businesses minimise the tax they have to pay in the systems they operate in. It always annoys me that paying the legal minimum tax is presented as a moral failing by companies rather than a legislation failure by governments. Few individuals chose to pay more tax than they have to.