To want IDS to crawl back into the primordial slime from whence he came!

[Dawndonnaagain]

Latest leaks on welfare cuts, may just be ideas being posited but still fucking nasty.

Disabled benefits "massively more than the average working person earns"? No. Just no. You can rest assured on that one.

I thought so cory. I genuinely don't know so I genuinely can't say if making cuts is good or bad.

I support welfare cuts for able bodied people. I support the Welfare state as safety net for those who cannot work, not for those who will not. I do not support taxing working people any higher but I do support closing tax loopholes and going after tax avoiders

My position exactly

I'm always frustrated when those opposed to any cuts say "what about the tax avoiders" while others seem to concentrate solely on benefit cheats. What's wrong with the idea of dealing with both??

So what do you do during recessions?

When it's neither "cannot work", nor "will not work", but there is less work then supply of workers?

And there's always a certain amount of churn even outwith recessions. Company goes bust, workers left with nothing, 6 months later they're all sorted but meanwhile families have to eat.

For anyone who supports the capitalist model of businesses growing, shrinking, shedding workers whenever they want, it's in their own interests to support unemployment benefits (which in our system is paid for by National Insurance stamp paid by worker & employer). Without this support, redundancy would mean destitution for the workers - so resistance to redundancies would be much stronger. After all, this is how unions formed in the first place - people had so little to lose.

PausingFlatly If someone loses their job in a recession and if there genuinely aren't any other jobs available, then surely that puts them in the "cannot work" category, which most people seem only too happy to support?

Cory without DLA, and many people are being turned down, it works out as approx £5.600 p.a. That's in the support group. Out of that you would need to pay bills, transport costs, food, clothing, etc. So, gas and electric may be a bit more because you're less mobile, so from your £432 per month, you would need to take off, say £100 for gas and electric, another 30 for water, 20 for a phone of some description. 292 is left. Now take off, £10. per week for transport costs, doctor, dentist, library, shopping, and that's using public transport, not taxis. £40 for food. If you're able, remove another 15 per month for broadband. You are now left with around quid a week, if you are lucky, to pay for glasses, treats, social outings, clothes, bedding, extra inco pads if needed (not free in all authorities). And that is only if you're gas etc. is that cheap and if you don't need taxis. It's only if you combine a return trip on a bus, that's one outing per week for a tenner here, so without a car, we would have to combine shopping with doctor/dentist/optician, whichever.
People are already dying due to the cuts that have taken place so far, they are dying because IDS has instigated the worst of the sanctions, and yes, you can be sanctioned on disability benefits, too. It is inhumane now and set to get worse.

The support group being those who get the highest Incapacity Benefit/ESA award.

The maximum ESA for disabled people is £109.30 per week for the support group.
The standard ESA for disabled people unable to work is £73.10.
The basic state pension is £113.20 per week.

(There can be additional benefits like DLA/PIP or social care provided in kind in the same way that pensioners get additional benefits for disability and social care, but those have already been slashed in the last 4 years. Further cuts would be on the top of current cuts.)

Casually, a lot of revenue could be raised by the party who is brave enough to stop benefits for the able bodied who don't want to work. It's not just those on long term job seekers but those who claim tax credits to top up the household income as it's easier than than the second adult going to work. Likewise, those who only work the minimum sixteen hours. Then there would be no need to cut DLA.

All you tend to see mentioned is benefit fraud being tiny but it's not this dishonest claims that wind people up so much but the ones that play the system rather than do their utmost to provide for themselves.

The additional benefits like DLA/PIP are not income-replacement (like pensions and unemployment benefit are income replacement).

The additional benefits are towards additional costs incurred by being disabled, eg special transport, incontinence pads, adapted gubbins, personal care.

DLA/PIP can enable disabled people to work, by defraying the extra costs they incur. David Blunkett is eligible to claim.

(I don't know much about disability benefits solely for children, but these will be on the basis that children wouldn't have been earning anyway and would have needed some parental care anyway.)

Little. There is also £16 a week extra for additional disabilties so at the moment the maximum is £123.70 (£125.05 in April) Excluding DLA .

Whether that is the correct or a reasonable ammount for Disabilty ?.

However, we need to state the correct figures .

Can anyone say, do you feel £109.30 a week is too much? Would you like to see it cut?

It's not a bridging amount, like unemployment benefit. For people with permanent disabilities, this is their life.

It also means the disabled person isn't eligible for free prescriptions in England, BTW, as it's deemed "too much". Pensioners of course get free prescriptions as well as the higher pension.

£16 additional ESA? For an adult? Under what circumstances?

Because ESA doesn't count the number of different conditions a person has.

Or do you mean £16 of some other benefit for a family where there's another disability or something?

I agree we should state things correctly, so it would be great if you could specify what benefit that is.

another person with a disability, I should have said

He's a fucking bastard. And I nearly never swear

If the ESA is Income based , pepole on it are entitled to Free Prescriptions as well as Dental care. From The NHS Choices website .

If the ESA is income-based, its £101.15 per week in the first place. Thus nudging recipients into the free presecriptions zone.

I haven't had free prescriptions since I became disabled. Nor free dental treatment or eye tests.

And sorry, got confused with my earlier figure of c£70 - this is only for the first 4 months: standard income-related ESA for disabled people unable to work is around £101.15 per week.

(Also, the first figures I gave were next tax-year's rates taken from my award letter: they don't kick in until 6 April. ESA for the support group is currently £108.15 a week, from Gov.uk. Sorry for confusion.)

If Someone with Aspergers also had Dyspraxia the dyspraxia is considered an extra disabilty and would qualify for the £16 extra. In theory at the moment a single disabled person could get up to about £200 a week . ESA £123.70 Mobilty £56.70 general need payment £23 total £203 plus free prescriptions and dental care. I am not saying thats 'enough' however, thats how it is at the moment.

If you go on to the Work And Pensions website and look at Disabilty and ESA payments it all works out. Obviously it will be totally 'wrong' if these payments get reduced by any 'incoming' or incumbent government, but this is the current situation regarding potential support.

Conviently forgetting housing benefit

But remember everyone, IDS said ESA made disability benefits simpler...

Dawndonnaagain explained quite accurately how cost of living breaks down, but you're right, she forgot to include any shortfall in HB for disabled people who need an extra room for a carer or equipment who have fallen foul of the bedroom tax, so that'll come out of their living costs too, yes.

Are you suggesting HB should be subject to further cuts too, carol?

Mobility allowance is not ESA, it's DLA/PIP and not deemed income (explained above).

Can you say what your £16 benefit is called? It isn't ESA.

I also don't know what your "general need payment" is. Could you perhaps link? Is it for an adult or child, for example?

And as I've said, you won't get free prescriptions if your income (maximum ESA) is over the threshold.

Also as I said, there are other forms of disability benefit pertaining to specific needs. So for example someone might have a package of daily care actually costing the local authority £100s a day, or have payments towards such care.

But having paid for that special care, the disabled person will in fact still need to eat, pay bills, buy clothes... all the costs of being alive incurred by everyone.

For this, one needs income (or income-replacement). Which is what ESA does.

Little. There is also £16 a week extra for additional disabilties so at the moment the maximum is £123.70 (£125.05 in April) Excluding DLA .
Smoke Can you tell me where your figures came from please. Dh is only entitled to 108.15 pw. He has a number of severe disabilities and the government website states the figures that I gave.

Govt figures

I don't think it is reasonable to expect the taxpayer to fund someone to live, for example, in central London.

Many, in fact most professionals, have to move around the country for work. It is not acceptable for those who do not work to live in parts og the ocuntry unaffordable to many of those that do.

That's a great idea, Casuallyvacant.

No poor people to live in central London. Of course, all the rich people left might have difficulty getting cleaners, childcare, shopping locally and so on.

Interestingly, the top 10% of earners in the UK have around 12 times the income of the lowest 10% but only pay 8 or 9 times the tax. Tax isn't just income tax, which only accounts for a quarter of revenue anyway - it's VAT etc and falls disproportionately on poorer people.

I don't think the welfare state should be treated as a safety net for the desperate either. As we all pay NI or receive NI credits, which gives us statutory entitlement to these benefits (in theory anyway) we should all be able to access them as we would expect to in any other insurance policy. I'd welcome a return to universal benefits and I even think that all means tested benefits should be taxed a nominal amount, 2p or something, so that everyone contributes formally via income tax.