To think that if grammar schools were more available , private schools would almost 'vanish'

[smokepole]

The percentage of pupils educated in private schools is about 7% of the school population, similarly 4% are educated in grammar schools. I am wondering if there was a 'nationally' available network of about 350 grammar schools (including Boarding provision) , what percentage of parents would still use private education.

And London schools, where multi-million pound conservation area terraces are next door to very challenging estates, and the demography is more mixed in terms of race, nationality and language, generally outperforms the national average. In almost every borough.

It had been reported that London isn't as mixed as one would think.Poor being pushed out and well educated,high striving immigrants in.

London also has far more money to spend than other areas.

I think there should be a grammar school in every town and that is coming from somebody who would have only have had one child out of three pass the 11+ and couldn't afford private neither.
My reasoning is that bright children are quite often just left to coast and attend a bad school.
Lets face it there is nothing, not even Ofsted that can determine whether a school will be good and meet the needs of your child.
The state approach doesn't work for all kids.
In addition, throughout the past 20 years with dc in a mixture of different state schools and assisting in the early days, I have come across several dc who would pass 11+, but it was irrelevant as we don't have any.
Some people may think that is good and all dc are equal but we still have the selection of Faith and 2 good schools that have a small catchment area.
The others are all pretty much the same poor school nobody would choose for their dc if they had any real choice.
However, Smokepole You know we don't have private schools except for one in the next town, it isn't brilliant but a step up from the state schools.
So, it wouldn't affect private education here.

FSM % remains very high in the comps all around me !
I agree that many immigrant families really push educational achievement, and I am often gobsmacked by threads on MN where a poster is agonising about state or private and quotes the high EAL % in the state school as a worry.

Mostly I think people would do better concentrating on supporting their own child in any system whatsoever than trying to look for ways, schools and systems to segregate them from 'people like us', whatever that 'us' might be.

Whwt ones "most able" mean in the BBC report? If it means that the top few do a bit less well while the majority do better, then surely that's a better option than the top few doing a bits btter while the majority do worse? Obviously, in an ideal world everyone should do as well as they possibly can- so the best thing is to improve the outcomes for the top few at those comprehensives that aren't doing as well as they they should, rather than reintroducing a system that doesn't serve the majority well, but does advantage the top few?

And I really don't think it's worth discussing data from 2003, Caroldecker!

Where is the data for "the majority do worse"?

Hi Morethan. I think your post demonstrates what it is like living in an area where good schooling comprehensive is 'patchy' with the majority being poor. I also think a lot of posters on here who advocate a comprehensive schooling system , with no selective options do so because in general they come from areas where there are no problems either in aspiration or in attainment.

I know that in certain areas of the North West , even the thought of going to university does not cross the mind of many bright children.
The reason is because in some families, they have no understanding of higher education or aspiration, they are surrounded with a ' not for the likes us' attitude . The other problem is if a pupil decided he would like to go to university, there is a possibility that his friends would think he had 'gone soft' or had 'big ideas'. I don't think many of the posters really understand the generational problems particular in 'Northern towns'. The problems in London and the South East are different, they are certainly not likely to be that you are above yourself for going to university.

This is the sad thing the areas that desperately need a selective acdademic option (because most schools are poor and nobody can afford private education) are never going to get the option. This is educational apartheid in operation and is a far greater difference than is seen between a grammar or modern school in Kent.

Smoke pole, surely those areas desperately need good schools for all, not just good schools for some! No sense in introducing educational apartheid to solve what you see as another firm of educational apartheid. Good learning for all is important for the whole of society. Maybe aspiration is more equally enjoyed in London precisely because it is denied to fewer people!

I'm in the NW myself. Just moved back after living on the south coast for a few years. I don't think lack of aspiration is confined to the North. I've seen it everywhere. Though I do know that the towns just north of Manchester such as Burnley are struggling to offer very much to their young people especially those not destined for university. I see it far less south of the city.

Golden, IMO, what those areas need is something for the kids to aspire to. There is little in the way of economic hope, high unemployment etc. but it's also an area where people tend to stay from the cradle to the grave. There is little mobility which means that many kids don't even consider applying for jobs elsewhere because moving away isn't in the local psyche. I remember reading that alongside parts of Wales and parts of the SW, it has the highest concentration of purity of names (or something similar) meaning that you find that a lot of the people living there have surnames historically associated with that area. Anyway, sorry for the tangent.

I knew who the OP would be the second I saw the title of the thread.

You are obsessed, Smokepole.

I live in a town which has a grammar and a high school. No thinking person, witnessing the social, educational and psychological "apartheid" this creates could possibly wish it to be imposed on other towns.

Smokepole

I completely agree, this is my ds2. A very bright boy from first starting school
completely let down by poor schools in an area where most don't aspire to much.
We tried so hard to make a difference and our efforts were well received with the other 2 of our dc.
The eldest was a slow plodder, worked hard and tried his best. He managed to his best ability and almost reached his potential which was the best he could have asked for from the school he attended.
Ds2 went to a previously good Faith secondary school that was poor when he attended and he got lost in the peer pressure downward spiral and no matter how we tried the results were inevitable, he nowhere near reached his potential.
DD has managed to get out of a bad lot for secondary she knows she has had a lucky escape.
I do think it is awful that children can see from a young age that ther really isn't so great an opportunity from their local schools.
It is also awful as Smokepole suggests that uni, even A levels are just not considered by some bright dc because that's not for us.
If your children were growing up in this environment you would want a return of a grammar school system.
Not everybody is good at school, it doesn't serve everybody the same and some dc would benefit from a less academic education with the chance of vocational subjects and apprenticeships.

Certainly not in 'Cheshire East' where my brother lives...

The gulf between North Manchester and South Manchester Didsbury southwards is probably the widest in the country. This is not just in terms of houses worth £15k Burnley - £12 Million Alderley Edge/Prestbury but in terms of social understandings culture food and life expectations is huge . There is not the same differences in Kent for instance moderate poor- quite wealthy. There is a gradual increase /decrease , driving the 15 miles from Salford to the Airport it is like you have travelled through a 'Vortex' either way such is the contrast in life's . Because my brother has lived in Knutsford for over 20 years and the Manchester area for 29 years, I have seen much more of the North West than I have of Kent (because I was always working when not AWOL)....

haklyt where is your more up to date data showing that the 2003 position has changed. It was a very clear difference at that point, so what is the most recent position?

at the idea of the thicko rich being able to get into a selective Grammar.

It's all a complete nonsense which parents spend endless years and God knows how much money fretting about. At the end of the day (or rather at the end of the line) comes a levels, nothing else matters. You can pay for private 'prep' get them into to grammar , if it's available, (or keep paying for private) or let them go through the 'system' ... It all comes out the same in the end because THANK GOD there are few private universities..And the few that there are, are known to be for the rich but thick.... So that is my experience, state primary, failed 11+ as I couldn't afford the tutoring, so thicker kids knew the papers and got the place..mine plodded through the local excellent comp.. Put her head down did the work, got the grades ..now second yr Cambridge (please excuse smug proud smug mum) But above all, proud because SHE did it for herself, because she wanted it...not because I had paid for it, and pushed her into it.

I am intrigued by the idea that a class can be too small Brandysnapper - how so? What do you believe to be the problem with a class this size?

Yes, massive difference between north and south Manchester. The aspirations and expectations of kids here where I am in Cheshire East stretching to the southern tip of Stockport such as Woodford and Bramhall and across to Trafford compared to kids in Salford and up to Oldham and Rochdale is seriously vast. Although having taught in Salford and inner city Manchester, I don't think the lack of aspiration is as great as I found it when I taught in Burnley (granted only 2 terms). Maybe living in the city offered more opportunities.

I agree that classes can be too small. I pay and my primary aged kids are in classes of 20 and 23. I wouldn't send them to a school with classes of 12. 17-20 was what I was looking for ideally. Enough kids to create a good dynamic with varied friendship opportunities but not too many to detract from learning.

I've seen other posters say they were looking for a minimum of 14 or 16 too so it's not just me who feels this way.

Smokepole

You are so right about the NW divide and I do believe it is more drastic here than anywhere. Cheshire might as well be in the south, no disrespect intended to the south at all, they are just similar.
It is another world to most people in our area and yet a few miles away.
There is very little chance for social mobility here at all and there should be, the same as other areas in the country.
It used to really upset me to see bright children just get so lost in the system parenting alone can't overcome some barriers.
I'm not saying it would make for a fair system because I don't think there could ever be such a thing, but fairer for some has to be better than unfair for the majority.
I see young people who have been failed by the system and it was a shock to encounter this during my NQT year. Some state schools are diabolical, they can't get any worse and it isn't a case of it isn't fair to have more grammar schools but it isn't fair for people to be failed by the system in this way.
I'm sure if these young people were given accessible apprenticeships in their subject of choice at 14+, they would not be throwing chairs and tables in a classroom at 15, 16, 17 and 18.

Not all private school children would get into a grammar. Only the cleverest would stand a chance.

DD is at a grammar. It is very academic. Lots of tests and lots of homework but she thrives on it.

My cousin's two DC are at our local private school. Same age as my DD (11) but whilst she can expertly recite the correct endings for French irregular verbs, her second cousins aren't really sure what a verb is in English let alone in French. They are streets behind academically and with little homework or expectation to study.

Great extra curricular activities though and exotic school trips. Lots and lots of shiny new white Range Rovers lined up at drop off and pick up too

Myredcardigan

Manchester is excellent as it includes a wide variety of people outside and my dd has had some fantastic opportunities there.
We know quite a lot from East Cheshire, but other areas have the odd dc joining the organisations.