To think that if grammar schools were more available , private schools would almost 'vanish'

[smokepole]

The percentage of pupils educated in private schools is about 7% of the school population, similarly 4% are educated in grammar schools. I am wondering if there was a 'nationally' available network of about 350 grammar schools (including Boarding provision) , what percentage of parents would still use private education.

And I have certainly never heard of any of the local grammar schools offering practice sessions.

Bring back secondary moderns! Oh wait...

Yes, the grammar school system exists in Northern Ireland.

Private schools are unknown.

NI students consistently outperform their peers on the mainland at A level.

Northern Irish universities are also the most demographically representative in the UK, i.e. they recruit students from all social backgrounds.

Floisme. You're right. The test for whether someone actually wishes to bring back selection isn't whether they want their children to go to a grammar school. It's whether they'd be happy for their children to go to the secondary modern.

When universal secondary education was introduced as a result of the 1944 Education Act many parents who educated their children privately were delighted that their children would be getting a free education (provided that their children passed the 11+). However, those children who failed and went to Secondary Moderns had to leave at 15, so weren't able to sit O Levels at school. That meant that there was a considerable demand for the introduction of comprehensives, which took children up to the age of 18, and gave all children the chance of continuing their education beyond school-leaving age if they so wished.

YABU - where would all the posh dimwits go?

My DD goes to a state school. At the beginning of yr7 they were all tested and put into sets. The majority of kids who got into the top set had attended Kumon or something similar, and had been drilled in how to pass the tests.
Some really bright kids did not get into top set because they had not seen the format of the test before so did not do so well. Top set are pushed towards academic success- the other sets not so much. Selection in senior schools is still alive and well and not exclusive to private/grammar schools.

Some people choose private because their kids are not that bright/able and the State system writes that child off and dumps him in with other kids who have been written off for whatever reason and who will not get the schools into the league tables.

We all try to do what is best for our child. Grammar schools are academically selective so work for one group.

Why does bringing back grammer schools also mean bring back secondary moderns?

they do around here

YABU:
There was no shortage of private schools when the grammar system was widespread.
There continue to be many private schools in grammar areas.
You presume that all children in private schools are of grammar ability - this is a long way from the truth and actually many children are in private schools in order to boost a mediocre of average ability
For many the pull of private schools is the social selection as much as the education.

You are also assuming, or seem to be assuming, that the education in a grammar school is better than that on offer in a comprehensive school, and / or in the top-ability sets in a comprehensive?

Secondary moderns pick up the kids - the 84% or whatever - who are rejected by grammar schools. You can't have one without the other although people prefer to call them 'ordinary comps' these days.

Sorry that should have been 94%

CarolDecker: because once the top 25% are removed into grammar schools you are left with the less academic 75%, probably doing more BTecs and less doing triple science and Latin, and 2 MFLs. Though in truth I don't think it would be the same as in the old days when secondary moderns and technical schools did CSEs and grammars did O levels.

Would you want your child who maybe missed grammar by 1 or 2 points to be in a school geared up to educate only the less academic?

And what of the child who is ace at Maths and bottom set at English?

loads of private schools are going bust though. arent they? Or seeking to find students from abroad

caroldecker If you cream off the top-performing academic children and send them to grammar schools, where do the rest of them go? The remaining schools for the 'also-rans' might not be called secondary moderns, but they would inevitably have less of an academic focus than the grammar schools.

For my daughter it was some years ago now. She went up to secondary education in 2006 and it now in her second year at university.

Primary schools certainly didn't prepare for 11+ then, and I doubt much has changed there. Personally I don't believe children should be too rigorously drilled for it. If they are then there is always the risk that a few who are unsuited to grammar school may get in, and then not cope well. So if there is a rule that state primaries should not prepare children for it then IMHO that is as it should be.

The effect might still be similar though, as I suppose there may be no such rules in the private primary sector??

Some private schools are applying to become free schools.

If private schools are going bust I would suggest that this is due to:
Recession and austerity and especially low interest rates: endowments and other vehicles set up to pay fees will be underperforming.
Rising costs in Private Schools.
People realising that state schools are not the no-go hell holes they were in our day.

In my LA standards and results have been rising in the state schools, a critical mass of middle class parents have opted for them, thus attracting more of same, and the LA has found it's need to find more places under pressure. But they have kept pace.

Some of these posts are offensive. There's no such thing as a 'thick' child. Some are better academically than others, but that doesn't mean they are thick.

The town I grew up in has a few Grammar schools. I was fortunate enough to attend one of them. There was a great mix of people to be honest.
I was from the rough council estate up the road, one of my best friends came from an incredibly poor family, another of my best friends had attended a fee paying prep school.
I think that grammars have been ruined now by becoming elitist. They have to be (at least in my home town) because every parent wants their child to go there, not because they think their child is special, but to keep them out of the special measure alternatives.
If I still lived there I would do everything I could to get my child into the grammar as the local comps are so bad.
My cousin was sent to a private school when he failed to get into the grammar.
I don't think the issue is with private schooling or grammar schooling, it's the failing schools that are causing a knock on effect.
I also think that fee paying schools will always have their place. They can't be replaced by grammars. Private schooling gives a great start to life. Such small classes and networks.

39 responses in 50 minutes !.

Sorry was doing something else.

This is not a 'Modern /Comp school kids are thick thread'.

The thread is about what percentage of parents send children private , because of a lack of available selective or appropriate educations.

I know about the pros and cons of grammar/modern schools personally , 'failed' by a 1980s Kent Modern school. This in contrast to the good education DD1 got from one enabling her to her first choice University. Sister, DD2 and DS were/are being grammar educated.

I know that they are plenty of private schools in Kent (Prep schools just for 11+ entry to grammar schools). There are also big name public schools, that will always exist for educating 'rich and foreign students', no matter what provision is available for selective education. The other reason for this post is if the Weald Of Kent grammar satellite gets the go ahead, there is likely to be more grammar schools , opening in the England under this guise.

tee hee - you havent met some I have.

The majority of private schools round here are selective and the good ones have waiting lists.

I suspect it depends on the area you're in and how good the school is as to whether lots are going bust.

But then I don't think grammar schools are particularly fair - having read many threads on here about them I thought they weren't exactly a massive social mix of children. Still seems to be a lot of tutoring goes on for the exams which is fair enough but favours those with the financial/intellectual resources to do that.