To think that if grammar schools were more available , private schools would almost 'vanish'

[smokepole]

The percentage of pupils educated in private schools is about 7% of the school population, similarly 4% are educated in grammar schools. I am wondering if there was a 'nationally' available network of about 350 grammar schools (including Boarding provision) , what percentage of parents would still use private education.

I love the 'sent' to grammar school as if it was a choice! My parents would have 'sent' me to grammar school. My primary headteacher wanted to 'send' me to grammar school ( he even got me a resit) but the system didn't take any of it into account.

Lepetit. I cant even remember taking the 11+ (but obviously I did) . The reason was it was not that 'important' if you passed or failed, that was the consensus of the friends at primary school. If your were bright, you went to the grammar if not so what they were 'no hard feelings' to those who passed.
My Brother and I failed , Sister passed Brother left with 1 CSE in English Sister walked out of French A level with an offer for Oxford in her grasp they have both done equally well despite their different educational experiences.

The school I went to was 'shocking' thinking back to it (I just got on with it with undiagnosed SEN 1985).. Today obviously some people particularly those in Kent/Medway think it is the end of the world note my quote up thread that the '11+is Kent's equivalent to Capital Punishment' ! A matter of Life or Death.

Portico- are your local schools secondary moderns or comprehensives-have you found out? And are they all in special measures?

Hakluyt. Local schools are comprehensives, as shown in the livery on the schools' billboards. Not sure how many times I have to tell you that my local schools are comps and that they are in special measures.

So the grammar is either a super selective or in another LEA?

And every child in your area who isn't at the grammar or in a private school is in a school in special measures? Every single one?

Not sure where you are going with this. 3 comps that my dc are eligible for are in special measures. My dc is in a super selective that is in another LEA

The term 'Comprehensive' school and its meaning I.E what percentage of the three levels of ability they need to have to be Comprehensive can be anything. This means that one Comprehensive school could have 2% High Ability students 40% middle ability and 58% Low ability students and still be one or it could have the complete opposite cohort. Therefore If schools in Medway/Kent such as Robert Napier or Brockhill Park claim there are Comprehensive schools it means the definition of the meaning is open up to interpretation.

How far do they travel to this super selective?

I have nothing against super selectives. If they take from a huge area it really doesn't take away from other schools.

29 miles two trains in the morning and the same at home time

There is a different debate to be had about super selectives. But when people say "grammar school" it's not super selectives they are talking about.

We did have a gs in the same LEA. We are out of catchment but we would have still got in with d's high scores in second round offers. Did not think much of this school so opted for super selective.

"Hakluyt. Local schools are comprehensives, as shown in the livery on the schools' billboards. "

The non-grammars in a town with 4 grammars in it are CALLED comprehensives - but they are not. What a school is called on the billboard - comprehensive, high school, academy, secondary school, upper school - is not the point. Because a school can call itself, within reason, what it likes, you have to look beyond the billboard and actually consider the intake.

Comprehensive = representative intake from its local area.
Grammar school = intake not represemntative of local area, selected on basis of passing exam, usually at 11. May take anything from top 25% - top 0.1% of ability
'Secondary modern' / 'Other school in a grammar area' = intake not representative of local area, default for those not passing an exam for a grammar school.

I would say the dividing line between comprehensive and secondary modern / 'other school' is quite a tricky one, but perhaps where 2% or more of the higheser ability children from the local area are removed to a grammar school? Those, say, 6 children per year DO make a difference.... difference between 0 and 6 Oxbridge entrants, for example, is HUGE in terms of public percetion and pupil aspiration.

But our local comp loses far more children to the better comp.The grammar numbers w're negligible in comparison.

Take Altrincham (Trafford) 7 State secondary schools 4 are Grammar 3 are 'modern schools' total students = 7857 Grammar = 4541 57% 'Modern' =3346
43%. Yet the Modern schools average is 72% GCSE pass rate lowest 62% Altrincham College of arts Highest 'Wellington' 76% . This is proof that despite the grammar schools taking 57%, the 'Comprehensives' still deliver great results.
They you have it a 'fully selective' system with 'Comprehensive' schools educating the full range of students !.
v

And by the way the 'Academic' Private school set up in the 1950s that is becoming a 'state' school produced the worst results of all just 50% GCSE!

There are no secondary private schools in an area of high economic advantage !Reason being There is no 'market' because all bases are covered educationally.

There were super selectives in my area but only a few children did the exam- travelling long distances isn't something many parents think worth it with good comprehensives. There were never more than 2 or 3 pupils a primary school going and often less.

Well to be fair, Smokepole, there are still a few Trafford kids who got whatever reason come our way for school. Few more at MGS and Withington. In fact, there was a thread the other day from a parent of a bright boy who was in catchment for AGSB but who couldn't make her mind up whether to use it or send him to Manchester Grammar. So she's got a very high achieving state grammar on her doorstep yet she's still considering paying fees not to mention the transport faff. But you're right, I don't think there would be enough interest to sustain a private school despite being an affluent authority in a part of the country with a large number of over subscribed private schools.

Oh and re my comment about all rounders. Whilst I absolutely accept that some children will indeed be top group for maths and not for literacy or vice versa, the fact remains that at 10/11yrs, those children are in the minority and that the majority of your top group for maths will be the same children as your top group off literacy even though most will demonstrate a slight academic preference for one over the other.
I'm quite sure this changes as they move into secondary school but it's certainly my experience at primary level.

Unless they have SpLD or ASD etc. when they could easily be brilliant at maths and terrible at English.

That is why they use VR and NVR tests. A large difference between them indicates SEN so it is a very effective way of excluding bright students with SEN.

"
"But our local comp loses far more children to the better comp.The grammar numbers w're negligible in comparison."

But surely that's parents voting with their feet for the better school? Anyone could apply for either comprehensive?

The manority are all rounders but it just shows how the system fails those who are not. Luckily we are comprehensive in my area or I do not know what would have happened to the gifted mathematician who was going to master classes once a week at the secondary school from year 5 - and was a county chess champion - he may have failed 11+ if he had had to take it.
I once taught the top 18 in year 5 in English and Maths and the core came to both, but I had about 4 who came to one or the other.
The system shouldn't fail children like this by saying that it doesn't matter because the majority are all rounders. The comprehensive doesn't fail them because they are in sets. It also doesn't fail the late developer because they can go up, they don't get stuck at a ceiling and have the ridiculous situation where pupils of the same age think it funny they should go to a meeting about Oxbridge because 5 years before they didn't do so well in a few tests!

Sorry- don't know what happened there! majority

No Hak only the ones who can afford the bus and surely if all the pro active parents of more advantaged kids leave in droves which happens on a far bigger and more catastrophic scale elsewhere surely the pot kettle saying has some relevance.

Meh really don't got your problem then.Comp not failing them,they're happy,grammar kids happy.

The whole point is that they wouldn't be happy if it was a grammar school system because they wouldn't get a place! Even more annoying if people then 'shrug' and say it doesn't matter because most pupils are all rounders.

If pupils leave one comp for another comp the first one will have Ofsted investigating and be in special measures and have to improve.