To think that if grammar schools were more available , private schools would almost 'vanish'

[smokepole]

The percentage of pupils educated in private schools is about 7% of the school population, similarly 4% are educated in grammar schools. I am wondering if there was a 'nationally' available network of about 350 grammar schools (including Boarding provision) , what percentage of parents would still use private education.

Oh come on you do it on every grammar thread.Scroll down,I already highlighted it.

MoreBeta: how do you think the private schools would fare if instead of a grammar a very good comp with high achieving top sets opened?

Ok, a question for the nay sayers.

It's ok to ask what about the ones who don't pass 11+ and debate about the fact that a percentage of bright pupils are creamed off etc.

What about the bright children who don't even get a chance at the 11+ who come from less privileged backgrounds who don't have the opportunity to even attend a decent school?
These children imo are very deserving of a grammar school education and if every town had a grammar school all children would be able to sit the 11+.
Yes, there would be those who didn't pass, but there are now.
The comps would have fewer children just because the grammar will have taken a percentage, so the class sizes would be smaller.
The less advantaged parents would understand the grammar system and would be able to support their bright dc to gain a place.

Growing up in a vocabulary-rich home, where reading is modelled and books available, puts you at a huge advantage, yes

Of course its not a bad thing but it will not in plant intelligence! It will not make a brain suitable to pass the 11+ .

I know, I was one of those dc, with a Father quoting long tracks of Shakespeare, Milton, reading me Macaulay Lays of Ancient Rome at aged 5.

It did not make me 11+ material. Yes I know this is anecdote but I am positive my brain is similar make up to other brains and will not grow, and become more intelligent by having books in house or well read parents.

Ditto the comp problem you like to ignore

Ha! Yes indeed.

The second option is a very unpalatable one and not many people have the hutzpah to express it openly

I always feel this is what you want posters to do, to come out and be open about social bubbles, keeping Dc away from what YOU call hoy poly, but I am afraid there are myriads of reasons why people choose G or P, and its oft been written on all these threads, people with really painful stories, and why they want something different and its all ignored because YOU cant shoe horn what they say into your narrow view that the only reasons people send dc G or P is to keep them away from knuckle draggers and chair throwers which are two phrases YOU keep bringing up.

And, all the books in the world at home, invested ISH educated parents, a nice leafy school in a VERY POSH UPMARKET VILLAGE did not help me when I was sat in a class (state class), not being taught a SINGLE THING, lost, left behind and dreading school every day because I was scared.

i thought we were talking about systems, not individual schools. Of course there are crap comprehensive schools. Did I ever say there aren't? iIs that what you mean by me ignoring the question?

And once again- you say "people want something different". Well, if you show me people who want something different and what they want is a secondary modern then you ,,might have a point. Until then.........

Blu - I think you ask a very good question.

There is a Comprehensive I know quite well sadly not in our area that has done just that (i.e streamed agressively). It is in a leafy suburb in the South East and is essentially turning into a grammar school in all but name and rapidly becoming the school of choice even though outstanding private is nearby.

Indeed one set of parent I know sends their DS to one of the outstanding academic private schools with the help of a bursary and they scrape the remaining fees together but he struggles to make the grades. Meanwhile their DD goes to the rapidly rising state comprehensive at her own choice and is doing very well indeed. I thing they would be better off with DS at the comprehensive as well and he would be happier.

I am not wedded to private by any stretch of the imagination. I do it because I have to in our area. A good well streamed well organised state school where classes are not disrupted and there is good discipline and a bright child or an average child or a struggling child can achieve potential is all I want.

What were you scared of? Why do you think you would have been less scared in a grammar school? Sorry if you've said already- it's a long thread.

And if you say you weren't 11+ material, why do you think a secondary modern would have been better for you than where you were?

Morebeta- you have no idea of the divisive nature of a town with a grammar school and a secondary modern. The town's children are two separate tribes, and never the twain shall meet. It's horrible.

MoreBeta

You sound like you don't have any choice, we didn't have the choice of private for 2 of our dc and the state schools are diabolical here. When I think of what they had to endure and the saddest thing is I know that ds2 would have passed the 11+ and gone to grammar had we had one in this area.
Our youngest will manage a decent education, but she has worked hard for it and is super talented

I don't see the problem with grammar schools being widespread tbh, they may appear to be unfair to some but what school doesn't select on certain criteria.
Even community schools have catchment areas and LAC comes first (which they should) and the church schools.
There are schools for talented sports players, musicians, dancers, those who are excluded from mainstream.
There is even a transgender/ lesbian/gay school i read about opening or already opened in Manchester.
There is even a growing number of home educators.

Hakluyt - its the same in our town. Private and state never meet.

Essentially the private schools play the role of grammar schools in all but name. One of them in fact used to be a state grammar a long time ago but went private when grammar schools were got rid of in the town. They do give out scholarships and bursaries which helps close the divide a bit and they do play some sports matches with state schools and our private school shares an athletic stadium with a state school.

The other divide is religious. One fairly well regarded secondary school is strictly Catholic.

Hak

Believe it or not the high schools are like that here. If you go to a certain one you don't mix with y or z school.

Kids are territorial and have there own little identity groups.
it's the same everywhere even where there are no private or grammars.

Hi Morethan/Myred. Just got in from the cinema.

Morethan. As you know posters on here talk about the 'evils' of modern schools (though DD1 did fine from her Kent one) and the effect on the 75% who don't pass. The reality in the localities you talk about is that 100% of pupils are getting a 'Modern' school education that pretends to be comprehensive education. In areas like you describe why not give 25% or so a chance rather than ruining 100% of pupils chances through dogma, except that is for the children whose parents can afford the Bolton/Bury private schools.

Myred. I am stuck in Folkestone until DD/DS finishes Yr 13/11 form that is 3 years away. DD cried her eyes out and performed about leaving, also I am not 'happy' with my personal situation and because of that we are living with my parents.

I have never known it be territorial with comprehensives. There are 4 in our town and they all mix quite happily because they are equal.

In answer to OP I think there would be more call for private schools to take up a lot of the 75% whose parents didn't want a secondary modern.

When DS was 8 yrs and I thought I was stuck with the grammar school system I was already looking at private. I hate the divisive system and didn't want him in the grammar or sec mod. I also didn't like some of the stories from the grammar - the pastoral care was poor- they were worse from the sec mod, which would have also been boys only.

Very, very, thankfully we moved to a comprehensive area when he was 9 yrs old and the problem was solved. Just as well because I had more children and couldn't have afforded the school fees. It was also a mixed comprehensive.

The funny thing ( although not funny for the family) was that my house was bought by someone because it was in the grammar school catchment and then the DS failed. They went to great lengths to appeal, even employing a solicitor, but he had go to the secondary modern. He shouldn't have done- he got to a good university in the end. ( doing better than many who passed- as do many who fail at 10/11yrs)

I should think the silent majority are very thankful that they don't have to divide their children at a ridiculously early age and that we only have a tiny number of grammar schools left.
I will think it is a good system the day we get a call for 'a return to secondary moderns' or people bemoan there are 'only X number of sec mods left' or people say 'how much they want their DC at a sec mod.'
They are never mentioned- that says it all to me- 'give a good education to the top 20/25% and the rest don't really matter'. It is hardly a civilised country where you decide who will get top jobs at 10/11yrs old. It is madness. Doors close. The chances of being taught Latin at a sec mod must be nil- why?

Hakluyt, you much deluded little poppet, a town with a grammar school will not be a town with a grammar school and a secondary modern one. It will be a town with a grammar school and a comprehensive school. Secondary Moderns rarely allowed all but the best students to do sit o levels. Comprehensives allow all students to sit the unitary GCSEs. Just like the grammar schools.

No, it will not. I see that you mean it won't be secondary modern in that it won't be the same as the old sms. But it won't be a comprehensive. Think it through.

Portico- why don't you pop off and look up "comprehensive school" then pop back and join in the discussion when you know what you are talking about?

I suggest that you look up 'comprehensive' in the dictionary.

I wouldn't send my DCs to a comprehensive that wasn't sending as many pupils to top universities as a grammar school.
I would read my 11 myths link given earlier, portico but I don't expect it is what you want to hear so your mind would be closed to evidence.

Portico, your post lends nothing to this discussion because quite apart from the fact that it was bloody rude, it was also massively deluded. A comprehensive by it's very nature includes the brightest kids in the area. If it's run alongside a grammar school who naturally cream off the top 20%, then how can it possibly ave an intake that is truly comprehensive. Pop off, indeed!

^Yes, there would be those who didn't pass, but there are now.
The comps would have fewer children just because the grammar will have taken a percentage, so the class sizes would be smaller.^

Of course they wouldn't. If they lost pupils, the equivalent number of teachers would also be lost - perhaps to the grammar school, which would have to be paid for. The only way to reduce class sizes would be to increase funding - which could be done in a comprehensive system. Also in running a greater number of schools, you lose economies of scale so it would cost even more to reduce class sizes in a selective system.

The other problem when you cream most of the able children off, providing opportunities for the able children in the other schools to take a variety of subjects becomes less viable.

These threads are always from the perspective of the grammar school parent. OP quite rightly thinks that some people won't pay if they can get a grammar school education for free. What she fails to take into account is that there would be a huge demand from those who didn't get in. Middle clas parents will look for alternatives, because they want the best education for their child too.

I hate the fact that supporters are happy their child would get a place and wouldn't want them at a sec mod- that is for 'other people's children'. If it isn't good enough for your child it isn't good enough for my child or Joe Bloggs child!

To put it bluntly our town has two private secondary schools and they only survive because there are no grammar alternatives. If one of those magically turned into a state grammar everyone would choose that if the could and its academic position in the league table would rocket upwards as the competition to get in would be intense. The other private school would collapse academically and probably financially in the end.

How would that work? If one of the independents became a state grammar school, presumably 90% of parents considering independent would put their children in for the exam. If only about half pass, the remaining independent school would be appealing for the parents of the others. There would also plenty of children currently in the state sector who would take and pass the exam for the grammar school. While the grammar school rockets up the league table, the other state schools will sink downwards. Parent who would not previously have considered private school, would start to look at that option. The remaining private school might have to expand.