To think that if grammar schools were more available , private schools would almost 'vanish'

[smokepole]

The percentage of pupils educated in private schools is about 7% of the school population, similarly 4% are educated in grammar schools. I am wondering if there was a 'nationally' available network of about 350 grammar schools (including Boarding provision) , what percentage of parents would still use private education.

I think Waddesdon and Wellington School in Trafford have very similar Characteristics . Both are classed as 'Modern' schools both achieve 76% at GCSE High Ability students average B+ grades at both schools. FSM 1.8 Waddesdon 5.4% Wellington . Cohort Waddesdon 8/62/30 Low/mid/high Wellington 6/61/33 Low/mid/high.

These are schools some parents may decide are better for their children even if their children have passed the 11+. It also proves that there are 'modern' schools that have no relation to the generally held view of many posters !.

Grammar Schools will never have the appropriate level of FSM and PP children, as the numbers of grammar schools have dwindled. Therefore, you will see certain demographic groups finding ways to get their children into these very much sought after schools. Governments will not increase the numbers of gs, therefore we will still have the prevailing status quo.

Bucks and Trafford are very different though. Bucks is a huge county which, although very affluent on the whole, does reflect the wider population with areas deprivation and rural areas too. Trafford is a relatively small LA within a larger urban area of 7 or 8?? authorities but the only one that operates the grammar system. This means that more and more people are moving into the area from just outside as it's unlikely to require a change of job location or anything prohibitive like that. There's also none of the 'not wanting to leave friends and family' when you've only moved 5miles up the road. It is becoming less and less of a mixed borough in the sense that even those who wouldn't consider themselves affluent or even reasonably comfortable are certainly educationally savvy and live there over other parts if Grt Manc precisely because of the grammar system.

Ms how many grammars are there where you and what about that article showing primary schools failing to get dc into the grammars but private doing so.

There were lots more grammars a while ago

private schools still flourished

Myredcardigan

We are finding this at the moment as we are house hunting in the area. Lancs side rather than Cheshire.
Even though we aren't interested in grammar schools and down sizing the cost of housing is ridiculous.
For us its only a few miles up the road and its a move we need to make to be closer to Manchester.
We have luckily found a couple of areas that are just outside catchment for the grammars, but there isn't much choice tbh.

so are kent and bucs the two main grammar areas?

Trafford and Lincs are also authorities which operate a full grammar system rather than just one or two. Lincolnshire is interesting as those in the North if the county aren't that sought after of competitive to get into. Whereas the further south you go in Lincs, the more desirable the grammar schools seem to become. There's even a hierarchy of grammar schools so in Trafford the Altrincham B/G grammars are highly sought after although interestingly, some other parents will actively avoid them.

Morethan, house prices in a lot of Trafford are steep. It's not just the schools I think but also the tram access to the city. If you don't need to worry about schools but want quick easy access to town then look at both Worsley and the Agecroft estate in Pendlebury. Both come under Salford but neither are bad areas and at Agecroft you're 2mins from the A666, where you zoom past Sslford University then the Cathedral and you're in the city centre in no time. We're the back end of Wilmslow and the A34 is a nightmare in comparison.

myred

Thanks very much. We have looked at Worsley and also Astley haven't even started doing ours up to sell yet, so just a feel really.
The Cheshire side would be out of the question and not for us really.
It has changed so much over the past 40 years but still has similar problems of the little East cheshire bubble. I think this will always be the same tbh.

yes, Cheshire is an acquired taste and in fact we left and moved to the coast for 4.5 yrs as I was unwell and simply couldn't cope with living there. We had to come back as we hadn't sold our house and we just sort of ended up staying but it's quite unlike anywhere else we have ever lived. As a school mum who rarely wears make up and whose work clothes are comfy and non work clothes are slobby if I'm honest, then you can imagine the looks I get esp when stood next to another mum doing the Sch run in pristine skin tight white trousers with 4inch heels and enough gold to pay off a mortgage in some parts of the country.

I've probably totally outed myself now with lots of local mums saying 'oh, it's her, the one that wears old jeans and fleeces each morning!'

myred

Oh you are so funny. Nothing has changed, except maybe the fir coats aren't worn anymore.
I was born and raised in the poorer part of Cheshire and the areas you talk about were completely out of bounds to us, you didn't stand a chance of your dc joining any activities here.
Of course all the LEA money went to this area too.
I'm not bitter

Are you moving to Astley morethan
If so the High schools would be St.Mary's (RC), Fred Longworth (Freddie's) or Walkden High. I think Walkden High has it's own PC on site. Wealthy folk around there would send their dc to Bolton School.

Myred. My brother will never leave 'Knutsford' He has lived there for over 20 years so I have spent a lot of time there over the years therefore I know the area very well. I actually think the 'Culture'has changed massively in East Cheshire/ Macclesfield BC area in the last 20 years. The premiership football culture has damaged the place, by creating the type of people mentioned by you.

There has always been money in Alderley/Knutsford but when my brother first went to live there it was not as 'flash' or vulgar as it is today. The people who were wealthy then were more 'reserved' in showing their wealth.

I can assure you 20 years ago it was quite possible to pick your DD up from Mount Carmel (AESG) not wearing 'bling' or driving a white Range Rover !.

It is very Sad that the 'bling' culture has invaded the area.

Smoke, it's funny because you become immune to lots of it and when we first moved away I noticed how relatively few range rovers and X5s there actually are on a normal school run and realised that was normal unlike here where 12 of the waiting 15 cars will be 4x4s made by either Land Rover or BMW. But my children are at a large local independent school and only one child I know of is the child of a premiership footballer and actually his mum, whilst always perfectly groomed, simply dresses on the glam side of normal iykwim so not particularly Cheshirey.

Obviously I meant the footballer's wife rather than his mum.
But you know, despite its faults, I love lots about living here. We are so close to fab Nat Trust properties, great parks, the Lakes and the Peak District are about 1hour away and we have an international airport on our doorstep. Lots of great schools both state and private and world class NHS services locally. What's a bit of orange and gold when you have all that ?

I am old enough to have sat the 11 plus and went to a grammar school in the north east. I vividly remember that my mum and dad had said they would send me to a private school if I did not get in to the Grammar. That must have been a non selective academic private school (which I personally don't see the point in). We don't have grammar schools round here any more and I work in a very good highly academic independent school. Selective entry - exams then interview. About 1 in 3 who apply get in. There are just two or three selective independent schools round here but quite a few that you can "pay and go". Guess they would still exist even if there were state grammars as not everyone can get in. The school I work in also offer bursaries to students with parents who have a low income. More independent schools should do that.

Red. You have just mentioned all the 'great' points my brother makes about living there Brother left Kent at 19 living in Manchester he found his way to Knutsford at 23 he is know 46 and has made his life there with his Wife, DD and DS . Tatton Park is always worth a walk around ...

He does say though that he loves North Yorkshire (Skipton Harrogate )

An interesting point is that George Osborne ' only' got 55% of the vote @ 2010 General Election , considering the area that is 'Crap'.

My DD was in an inner London comprehensive.

At her London school she was bullied horribly which the school refused to accept. She was not pushed academically and was lonely as hell as she had no friends. She was self harming, suicidal and going off the rails.

I moved us to Kent. Much to her shock she got into the top super selective Grammar school.

She will be doing medicine at uni this year.

There is NO way the comprehensive system would have turned out the grounded fantastic young woman my DD is with the amazing friends she's made for life. Pretty much everyone in her friendship group is doing medicine or going to Oxbridge.

I asked DH who is public school educated if we should have put her into a private school... His reply? No way. You put your kids in private school because they are guaranteed to make them pass exams. Not because your kids are clever.

My concern is how many other children like my DD are there, that for lack of opportunity may not achieve all that they could because of no access to the grammar system?

I dont know if this point has been made already, but countries at the top of the PISA scale do not have selective education systems (like the grammar school system) or are moving away from them at least.

Massi, Just because the particular comprehensive your daughter went to would not have turned her out as she currently is, it doesn't mean that 'the comprehensive system' would not have done. There are a number of comprehensives I know where Oxbridge / medcine / RG are common destinations for their high abililty students.

It is so hard for anyone, myself included, to argue beyond a few examples from their experience, simply because so few of us have the inside knowledge of more than a few schools.

A counter-example, again anecdotal. 3 siblings. 1 educated at failing ex-secondary modern followed by local not-great 6th form. 1 educated throughout at top private single sex boarding school on scholarship. 1 at same failing comp, then selective 6th form.

All went to Oxbridge, got virtually identical top-class science degrees. There are things - genetics, parental aspiration, parental education - that can have an even greater impact than schooling.

There is NO way the comprehensive system would have turned out the grounded fantastic young woman my DD is with the amazing friends she's made for life."

I agree there is no way that comprehensive school could have worked for your dd.

But as I have said before- the worst case of bullying I have ever come across happened in a well regarded London prep school. And one of the unhappiest educational experiences generally I have come across happened in a public school a regular poster rightly raves about. So you can't condemn a sector because of one school..............

Everyone on here discusses state/grammar/private school sectors entirely on the basis of their own (and their kids') experiences.

Anecdotes....data....and all that

Absolutely.

But it is interesting that the only ancedotes that constitute data on are those which support the view that comprehensives are largely rubbish, private schools are all fantastic and selective state schools are the best solution for everyone. And it doesn't matter how old the anecdotes are - they are accepted without question.

The anecdotes from comprehnsive school who are happy with their schools or from people like me who have first hand experience of the divisive nature of the selective system are challenged, disbelieved or just ignored.