To think that if grammar schools were more available , private schools would almost 'vanish'

[smokepole]

The percentage of pupils educated in private schools is about 7% of the school population, similarly 4% are educated in grammar schools. I am wondering if there was a 'nationally' available network of about 350 grammar schools (including Boarding provision) , what percentage of parents would still use private education.

Morethan. you have presumably been reading this thread? You have noticed the number of people going on about how wonderful grammar schools are and how dire the alternative? Surely you have enough imagination to think yourself into the head of a 10 year old who has tried to get into the grammar school but not made it? It does my matter how much "it was to choose the right school for you" it's wrapped up in- you have been told, very publicly, that "the right school for you" is the one for the kids not clever enough for the grammar school. The one where the kids who didn't even take the test are going. The people who pass are being congratulated and being bought new bikes -(yes, really). You? Well, people say "I've heard it's a very good school now" and " You'll still all be friends". Talk to people in middle age now about how it felt to fail the 11+. It has a lasting impact. Obvioulsly it does. But it doesn't matter- because those kids are just cannon fodder. So long as the privileged few maintain their privilege and their children are safe from the hoi polloi...................

And the kids who see their friends and classmates passing the exam? It's an entrance test. Some pass some fail. It's only about identifying the 'right school for the right child' if you feel some kids are not suited to a more academic education and will be fine with learning this at age 11.

it wasnt just the failing the exam, it was the crappy education then on offer at the secondary modern. nursing or motherhood were expected futures for the girls, so lots of home economics. woodwork and practical 'hands on' for the boys. not allowed to do the highest papers of maths for example.
believe me, there are plenty of bitter ex-sec mod pupils out there.

And it is insane to say it's the parent's fault if they feel as if they'd failed. They feel as if they've failed because they have!

Imagine if you failed the driving test and someone said "Congratulations! You've been deemed suitable for travel by bus!"

boys especially, as a lot dont 'mature' til after 11, a lot of clever boys denied access to academic subjects
hopefully it is better in areas with grammars now?

"it wasnt just the failing the exam, it was the crappy education then on offer at the secondary modern. nursing or motherhood were expected futures for the girls, so lots of home economics. woodwork and practical 'hands on' for the boys. not allowed to do the highest papers of maths for example. "

Absolutely. Fortunately that's not the case any more. But the principle and the public perception remains.

Hakluyt My sister was not told that she'd failed her 11+. She had just not passed. There's a difference in how you put it. She went on to a commercial college when she was 15 and did well after that.

Those of us who went to a grammar school were not privileged. We earned it. There was no private tutoring before I took my 11+. My Ex calls us privileged because he did not pass and is just jealous but he went on to become a legal buff.

I got off the (second) bus home from school one day - in my royal blue blazer - and a passing girl asked me what school I attended. When I'd told her, she just turned and said, "Snob!" If she'd known my background .......

I understand what posters are saying about crushing children at such a young age. I can see the problem with not be "picked" for grammar school if you are keen.

My DD is in year 6. She goes to a rather genteel CofE school. Daffodils in the church yard, duck pond, prefects, house system, middle class catchment, etc.

Being at the top of the class is not so much fun for her. The fact that she "knows everything" immediately has not gone unnoticed by her classmates. Quite a few take it personally. They get their digs in. They get their digs in every. single. day.

If she tries to hang back, the teachers tell her off for not trying. If she tries to join in the sports and be "one of the gang," she isn't picked by teachers because other kids need their chance to shine. She misses most play times because teachers have her running errands and doing special jobs all the time. This further irritates her classmates. She would actually like to be playing outside instead.

She spends a lot of her time in the classroom helping other kids, which is fine on the face of it. But it further reinforces that she is "different." Some times the classmates she has been told to help feel humiliated to have another child trying to teach them. They can't retaliate on the teacher whose idea it was, but they can lash out at DD who would never have presumed in the first place.

Things were fine in infants. She started to seem ahead in year 4, but not wildly so. By the middle of year 5 the gap was widening. Now it's gaping. Our local comp doesn't stream at all year 7, and only for maths after that. I can only assume the trend would continue and the situation would worsen if we chose to send her to the local comp.

We've decided to send her to a selective private school. If there had been a local grammar school we would have gladly saved the swinging cost. What we really need is for DD to be considered "normal." We need her to be treated like a child because she is a child. She is emotionally and socially a child and needs to be seen and treated as such by her peers and teachers.

Hak

Perhaps its a difference of area that maybe makes me think grammar schools would be a good thing here.
There is no way the majority of schools round here will ever be any good, its been like this since the grammar school closed, so i believe. I didn't live in this area then.
The area I came from didn't have grammar schools they were all comps and not very good ones at that.
I like the idea that some bright children would be given the opportunity for a better education, even though I take on board what you and others have said, because there is so little choice here.
I do sincerely apologise for any offence I caused with my comments, it was due to lack of understanding and no intention to offend.

Having had dd go through a series of auditions for a ss specialist school, still doesn't enable me to understand the assumed failure of 11+, it may just be that I don't know dc who have been through this in rl and have only spoken to a couple of parents who have gone through the 11= with their dc.

I am a bit of a hypocrite and that I went to a grammar school and 3 out of 4 or my children so far have gone to grammar (because we are in a GS area)
But I cannot say hand on heart that I approve of a system which writes off 75% of chil;dren as not academic at the tender age of 10, or that divides families into the 'bright' children and the 'also rans'

One of my DBs failed the 11+ , which caused a lot of sadness at the time, although ironically 30 years later he is head of maths at the grammar school he didn't get in to!!

To the op. More grammar schools would only get rid of the low quality private schools. As for. State schools I doubt it would lead to the creation of sec moderns, as comprehensives will continue as they have done so for the last 40 years.

Imagine if you failed the driving test and someone said "Congratulations! You've been deemed suitable for travel by bus!"

Spot on! Has anyone read the weird and brilliant 'don't knock the corners off' about a girl who takes the 11+ in the 60s?

TOSN

I haven't seen this, but it sounds interesting.
My mil and dh went to grammar schools, they really liked it, but they were different then, I believe.

The driving and bus analogy, I get it now.

I suppose my thinking was being in an area where everyone has only busses, the ones that don't work/ always break down, the thought of a driving test for those who could drive would be amazing.

Imagine if you passed the driving test and someone said "Congratulations! You've been deemed suitable for travel by car!

Shame no one sees the upside of grammar schools.

Yes, it would definitely be amazing, wouldn't it? But if only 25% were ever going to be allowed the driving licenses, and the rest would have to lump the buses, you wouldn't assume it was their parents fault they were a tad disappointed, I assume? And of course you can take a driving test absolutely as many times as you like....

I think its quite convenient to see the downside of grammar schools when you live in such an area and you have children who attend as I think several of the nay sayers have.
It's also convenient to see the downside if the alternative are equally or nearly equal alternatives.
If the area in which you live has very little chance of social mobility and bright children fall by the wayside its a different proposition.
A few grammar schools round here would benefit a lot of children, the alternative schools would be dire, but they are dire anyway.

Portico, the comps in a grammar area would not be comps, they would be secondary moderns.

I can assure you I am fully aware of the benefits of going to a good school. I would just prefer this option to be available to all the kids in my area.

Nit

I wasn't blaming the parents, I was wrongly assuming that the parents were allowing dc to feel like this and that there was more than they were doing that would be able to prevent this.
I wasn't suggesting the parents were making them feel like this, and think I worded my post badly.
As I said, I didn't intend to offend.

Neither system is better than the other just different. Students at grammar schools, far from feeling superior, can often really doubt themselves.

Oh yeah they are Hermia

I went to both a grammar school & comprehensive, in that order.

The 11+ throws up anomalies like me, children who are poor at maths but can pass the 11+, and I was wading through treacle academically at the very high-powered grammar school I was at for two years.

Paradoxically, I enjoyed my time at that GS more than the time I spent at the 'leafy but large' comp in another part of the country.

Students at grammar schools do not feel superior. However, students at grammar schools achieve superior results. Just check state school GCE and A2 results. They are pushed both broader and deeper from Y7. I know as I can see how my Y7 is faring at gs, vs his former primary school friends who attend 3 different comprehensives

"Having had dd go through a series of auditions for a ss specialist school, still doesn't enable me to understand the assumed failure of 11+"

No. It doesn't.

Students at grammar schools do not feel superior

Full of crass generalizations, sweeping statements and anecdotal evidence on this thread, portico - to which you are just adding to - the fact you call GS pupils 'students' speaks volumes, unintentional or not.

Can you speak for all those who have passed the 11+? No, you can't

If/when my DS passes the 11+ I would want him to feel superior - after all, the evidence is incontrovertible.

The schools your Y7s friends go to are 'comprehensives-in-name-only' - secondary moderns most probably.

More heat than light on this thread. Think I'll bow out here.

Hakluyt. Actually the thought of failure is 'far worse' Imagine living breathing something so much and putting all your effort time skill for years and then failing to get in to a school that is linked to your future career.

It is far worse than just failing a 11+ exam where you have no specific ideas of your future career. The same can be said for any footballer released from a football club. It is much worse for the child than failing a bloody 11+ ...

"
"If/when my DS passes the 11+ I would want him to feel superior - after all, the evidence is incontrovertible."

Wow.