Refusal to discuss formula feeding at parentcraft class

[obeliaboo]

AIBU? Ready for the fire!
I've been told that in order for me to have a tour of my chosen hospital's delivery suite, that i need to attend 'parentcraft' classes.
Yesterday was exclusively about breastfeeding, fair enough, didnt know that of course until we got there.
So, as the midwife goes on about breastfeeding and support, I enquire what is the support for those who fall into small percentage of mums who cannot breastfeed. Simple question.
"What do you mean?".
I had to ask again, and put it across that i intend to breastfeed, but what if i cant, what if my milk doesn't come in. It happens, it happened to my eldest sister, its nothing to be ashamed of so whats the harm in asking and what is the support in that situation.
"We don't discuss artificial feeding".
Seriously?? I understand the necessity to promote breastfeeding is a priority for the NHS, because it seriously needs normalising, but to just object to even touching on the subject of formula feeding really riled me. I felt like i was at a propaganda session! She instead continued to address breastfeeding and a specific brand of electric breast bump at a specifc well known retailer.
Is this what the NHS supports? Big business's and there overpriced products (the specific one mentioned was over £100, I am not in a position to be able to afford something like that for a start), under the guise that 'breast is best', its the best start for baby - and insinuating that formula is the devil when for some poor souls, it is the only option?
AIBU for finding this absolutely snotty and condescending? There are mums out there who are underconfident, or genuinely don't lactate, mums who have gone through breastcancer and mastectomies etc, so why are these midwives refusing to even consider discussing both options.
Why make it militant and harder for those who simply can't, to speak up without feeling ashamed?
FYI this is the 3rd midwife i've had ranting at me over this.

Comeagain is correct. Unless the information has changed literally in the last 6 months the who have said that the best and safest way to prepare each feed is as you go but the second safest way is to prepare in advance with water hot enough to kill bacteria and then cooled quickly (I used to put mine in a sink of ice cold water for a few mins) and then stored at the back of a very cold fridge until you need to use them.

What people need to stop doing - and many still do this - is to stop using cold water or previously boiled and then cooled to cold water to make feeds. People mistakenly think the boiling of the water is to make the water sterile - is it not. It is to make the water hot enough to kill any bacteria in the powdered milk.

Having the water hot enough at the point of mixing with the powder is the most crucial part of the whole preparation.

Or you can do what I'm going to do and get a perfect prep machine that is being bought for us. How lucky are we that does all the thinking in the middle of night for you! Well some of it at least!.

We have a tiny assed kitchen with similarly small fridge so makes more sense for us to buy it. Although I will insist on both me and OH learning how to do it traditional (aforementioned) way

Im sorry, but when did my thread begin a 'class' or social level debate? Whatever background you are from does not dictate/determine your level of competence or incompetence! Wind your necks in - this was about emotional support, regardless of which format a mother chooses to feed; the point is she is feeding her baby and needs support for whatever challenges arise, not harrassment, belittling and judgement from HCPs or other mothers.

So right, op. Lots of posters have ignored or twisted your key question. Hcps need to refresh their approach.

Well said obeliaboo, you are right - there are so many women out to attack others as if parenting is some sort of competitive sport. Just ignore them. You brought up a very important point. What do these women want babies who can't breastfeed to do - starve??? catch a grip....

"this was about emotional support, regardless of which format a mother chooses to feed"

Luckily for women who ff, they are in a HUGE majority as most women (even those who breastfeed) also formula feed, so there is usually lots of help and advice available from other mothers if you need it.

Also luckily for ff mothers, shit postnatal care (which many mums get) won't actually STOP you bottle feeding, regardless of how confusing or worrying you're finding it. If only that were true of breastfeeding.....

But minifingers for a lot of women part of the shit postnatal care they receive is lack of empathy and support for choosing to formula feed. It might not stop you being able to formula feed but it can stop you enjoying being a new parent and can even affect the bond with your child if you are made to feel a failure from the word go for even daring to pick up a bottle.

Redtoothbrush - you are right of course.

I'm really not sure how much is controlled for in all the studies used in a meta analysis, other than smoking (which is much more common in households of mothers who ff). You'd hope that social class and prematurity would be controlled for in addition to this, as well as the health status of the baby.

I think SIDS is very complex and that no one fully understands the mechanisms of it. But telling parents about all the things they can do to reduce risk (eg, room sharing, breastfeeding, back sleeping, not smoking etc) is important. Obviously not all parents want to or can follow all the recommendations about ways to reduce risk.

Fairylea - the lack of support for ff is part of a spectrum of unkindness and shit care that women sometimes experience. It's not excusable.

Midwives need to get their emotions under control. I know some who have admitted that they feel really sad about babies not being breastfed, but you'd hope that they would be able to swallow those feelings and concentrate on helping the mum recover from the birth and to feel happy and safe and confident.

Can I add, it's worth remembering that most midwives and health visitors have also bottle fed their babies at some point.

Of of my midwives said she breathed a sigh of relief every time she heard a mother was planning to formula feed.
She felt that giving support to breastfeeding mothers was far too troublesome.

OP, YANBU. I was talking to a friend who works in public health the other day, and she reckoned that most of the extra cases of gastric infection in formula fed babies could be put down to people not using water that was hot enough. I've seen it on an experiental level among my friends and family (including well educated professional women who are capable of reading the instructions on the side of the packet), she sees it professionally. Yes, there are instructions on the packet - but there are also relatives, badly trained HCP and goodness knows who "helpfully" suggesting shortcuts like using cooled boiled water (I had it suggested to me by a health visitor - fortunately I am a scientist by profession, therefore my immediate thought was "she's talking shite" - and fortunately I am in a position to chase this sort of thing up and sort out the wheat from the chaff on the internet - but not everyone is). Women do need to be told how to make up formula safely if they intend to/think they might use it.

minifingers
You are re-enforcing this, 'us vs them' mentality and i dont see how it is constructive in the slightest, i really don't.

Lurcio - I just can't get my head around people ignoring the instructions which come with a product like formula.

Do people routinely ignore instructions which come with other baby products which have the capacity to cause serious illness or injury?

Why would they do that?

Never mind reading them and then choosing to ignore the ones which are 'inconvenient'. Some people don't bother reading them at all.

I've set out my dreadful experience in earlier posts on this thread so won't bother repeating.
I wonder what it would take for midwifery profession to start focusing on getting Mum back up to strength and supporting her as baby's key provider in whatever choices she makes.

Perhaps it would help if health professionals actually flagged up WHY you need to use hot water - that there is bacteria in the powder - and what the consequences can be of not following this step (hospitalisation, occasionally death).

No doubt if they did this though they'd be accused of trying to terrify people into breastfeeding.

And formula manufacturers are never going to advertise that their product can be lethal if not used properly.

And mini - it's not about reading the instructions. It's not been about that since op's first post.

Like they don't try to terrify us already into breastfeeding - which in no way attributes to 'normalising' it as i agree it needs to be.
We were told during this session, and wrongly, how breastfeeding prevents child obesity, how it prevents ezcema and a host of other illness's which was a complete crock of shit.

As a formula feeding mum (from birth) I think they should hammer home how important it is to prepare feeds with boiling water. It wouldn't be scaremongering - it's not saying formula feeding itself is dangerous it's saying formula feeding is perfectly safe as long as you prepare the feeds correctly!

I despair when I read thread after thread on here where someone always comes along and says they keep the bottles full of previously boiled water on the side until they need to use them and just add powder.... It happens in virtually every thread I've seen.

I think a lot of it comes from information being handed down - people used to do that a while back before we now know the water needs to be hot, and people are just going along with it because that's what someone else they knew did.

Formula feeding is absolutely safe and perfectly fine if feeds are prepared safely and that's the advice that should be given.

I despair when I read thread after thread on here where someone always comes along and says they keep the bottles full of previously boiled water on the side until they need to use them and just add powder.... It happens in virtually every thread I've seen.

Yep, along with posters being almost outraged that their methods are being criticised. "I always made up formula with cooled boiled water, and MY babies never got ill".

I understand that the guidelines are desperately impractical (that's why I used ready made formula) but you just don't take chances with formula hygeine.

But, come to think of it, lots of people take massive risks with food hygeine as well (because "I've always cooked frozen chicken in the slow cooker / reheated cooked rice and never got ill").

That's why people do it. The risk just seems too unlikely to be relevant.

YY to the instructions being desperately inconvenient. You want to demand feed - you need to use 70 degree water - you're told the kettle takes approx half an hour to cool to 70 degrees from boiling. In the mean time your baby screams... and screams... that "goes straight through you starving scream". That's why people take shortcuts, especially when some health care professional who obviously slept through their lecture on microbiology gives them dangerous advice...

I was lucky - I could afford ready made formula. But it's damn expensive.

I'm honestly just getting annoyed at the things being posted on this now - it has completely diverted from the intended topic of why a midwife outright refused to address that some mums can't breastfeed so HAVE to bottle feed, (this wasn't about choosing to formula feed), and explain the support for those mums as a result; to a class war, a rife bf vs ff bitchfest and statistical 'i know more than you so ner' type attitude! And so what if a mum does choose to bottle feed, she can still need support!

I wasn't demanding a formula demonstration, but you know what - some mothers and fathers fucking need it, and being illiterate doesn't make you stupid, it means you need a little extra help. Even some of the brightest brains can mess up with 'simple' formula instructions and or struggle with finding what is right for baby, ie the formula brand, teats, bottles, position. Not everyone reads the instructions once and never bothers again, and i assume it is a minority of new parents who never read the instructions or atleast try. Life is about learning, some things need to be taught not just figured out. Yes breastfeeding comes with a heap of problems too, that doesn't mean that your life is harder because you chose to and or could breastfeed, it means your a regular mum and need support, but so does a formula feeding mother for the afforementioned, and other, reasons throughout this thread.

As someone on here has already posted, go into a room of 5yr olds and try to tell the difference between those who were bf or ff - you can't, they'll still be children!

I firmly believe bf needs to be pushed as normal, that the support mums need with it is relevant. I dont agree with pushy attitudes that it is the only way, that its easy or that you should struggle through it. I dont agree with new mothers being harrassed on ward by midwives, nurses or 'bossom buddies', waking up sleeping babies, not understanding or caring that some mothers milk hasn't come in, or that the child is tongue tied, simply not hungry or is just too tired. THAT is the militant brigade that pisses me off because its not about the mother or baby it is about that HCPs agenda instead of duty of care, and in the time passed since i began this thread, this has happened to a friend of mine who has been in hospital for two weeks since delivery and badgered, all in the name of 'whats best for baby' because her baby became accustomed to drip feeding as he had struggled with breathing difficulites after a traumatic EMCS for mother AND baby, despite her expressing for him.

Support over breast and formula milk needs to be equal for MUM. How is that suddenly a class war, or up to anyone else to chant 'read the label' or 'just shove the nipple in'.

Formula feeding mums may well outweigh breastfeeding mums, but i wouldn't know, because i dont sit reading statistical analyis, sorry - i instead am going through the final weeks of the third trimester, contemplating 'what will be' for me and little boy currently showing off his best kneejerks to cold apple juice! I feel like i should be able to ask a midwife, group or privately, a relevant question that should neither offend or spark some mad rant about who's got better parenting skills or who is a truer mother for the hardships she has had to go through.

Rantyrantyrant

Can you tell i just caught up with 2 days worth of posters following 2 days of no internet xD gamer boyfriend steals the pc

Thank you, op. Enjoy your pregnancy. Do what suits your family and I'm sure you will not be ground down by all the bs because you are well able to spot it.
And it made me feel better to see that I'm not the only one to have had shit care.

sparkysparkysparky Thank you - its been great that so many are eager to share experiences etc and discuss the actual topic.