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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Refusal to discuss formula feeding at parentcraft class

623 replies

obeliaboo · 12/03/2015 18:11

AIBU? Ready for the fire!
I've been told that in order for me to have a tour of my chosen hospital's delivery suite, that i need to attend 'parentcraft' classes.
Yesterday was exclusively about breastfeeding, fair enough, didnt know that of course until we got there.
So, as the midwife goes on about breastfeeding and support, I enquire what is the support for those who fall into small percentage of mums who cannot breastfeed. Simple question.
"What do you mean?".
I had to ask again, and put it across that i intend to breastfeed, but what if i cant, what if my milk doesn't come in. It happens, it happened to my eldest sister, its nothing to be ashamed of so whats the harm in asking and what is the support in that situation.
"We don't discuss artificial feeding".
Seriously?? I understand the necessity to promote breastfeeding is a priority for the NHS, because it seriously needs normalising, but to just object to even touching on the subject of formula feeding really riled me. I felt like i was at a propaganda session! She instead continued to address breastfeeding and a specific brand of electric breast bump at a specifc well known retailer.
Is this what the NHS supports? Big business's and there overpriced products (the specific one mentioned was over £100, I am not in a position to be able to afford something like that for a start), under the guise that 'breast is best', its the best start for baby - and insinuating that formula is the devil when for some poor souls, it is the only option?
AIBU for finding this absolutely snotty and condescending? There are mums out there who are underconfident, or genuinely don't lactate, mums who have gone through breastcancer and mastectomies etc, so why are these midwives refusing to even consider discussing both options.
Why make it militant and harder for those who simply can't, to speak up without feeling ashamed?
FYI this is the 3rd midwife i've had ranting at me over this.

OP posts:
comeagainforbigfudge · 15/03/2015 18:13

Why is everyone bashing each other about this?

Breastfeeding can be difficult. Not everyone can do it. (Or have the right home support to continue) There should be no shame in that.

Formula feeding has its own issues. Not least of which is finding the correct information. not just relying on WHAT'S WRITTEN ON THE TIN as some have highlighted (I know some very intelligent people who make it up back to front)

But Imo this is not a competition. Not all of us are baby experts when first child comes along. We muddle along.

I reckon we need to start talking about our fears/hopes/dreams along side what worked and what didn't for ALL ways of feeding.

The nhs have a directive to work from ie. Breastfeeding is "best" but as I've previously pointed out it is based on GLOBAL needs. We are lucky to live in a country where we have all options available to us.

Perhaps we need to stop berating each other, acknowledge the differences and LEARN from each other.

Or you know just all get worked up about it and end up missing the point of the thread, which is to have more open dialogue of different methods of feeding with no fear of recriminations/abuse for having a different way of approaching feeding.

Flame away Grin

minifingers · 15/03/2015 18:15

"but I do not understand the psychological desperation to do what is 'best' according to the Breastapo"

You probably know people for whom breastfeeding would be utterly alien and something they wouldn't ever want to do.

How do you think those people would feel if they were forced to breastfeed by someone making formula feeding completely inaccessible?

Can you try and put yourself now in the shoes of those mothers to whom formula feeding is personally unacceptable? These mothers will do anything to breastfeed, and will be devastated if they can't do it.

When it comes to women's desire to feed their babies one way or another it's vastly more complex and personal than your take on things. And IME, it's got bugger all to do with the 'breastapo' (by which I assume you mean the NHS and UNICEF as they're responsible for most of the promotion of breastfeeding in the UK at present Hmm).

sparkysparkysparky · 15/03/2015 18:17

Nobody has said that breastfeeding problems is the sole cause of PND. I'm sorry, purdie, that PND has been in your life.

LePetitMarseillais · 15/03/2015 18:18

NHS are positively measured compared to some of the bfing pushers on here who stat twist,exaggerate and scaremonger.

minifingers · 15/03/2015 18:33

Oh come on Lepetit, I've C&P'd comments straight from NHS Direct in response to challenges that the benefits of breastfeeding are 'trivial' and had to old 'stat twisting' comment, which you wheel out in response to every defence of the value of breastfeeding (regardless of whether any statistics have been quoted or not).

Just out of interest - when the the Lullaby Trust (the main uk SIDS charity) say "Breastfeeding
Studies have consistently shown
a reduced risk of SIDS in breastfed
infants. Exclusive breastfeeding
(i.e. those who have never fed with
formula milk) is associated with the
lowest risk, but breastfeeding of any
duration may be beneficial for lowering
the chance of SIDS compared to
formula feeding alone."

... and I quote it, without changing a single word, how is that 'stat twisting'?

Actually I never 'stat twist' because I'm not particularly literate with statistics and wouldn't know how to re-represent them or change them to present a particular picture. I simply quote the information exactly as it appears on NHS sites. I take it then you mean that the NHS and the Lullaby trust is misrepresenting the evidence and distorting it to make breastfeeding seem more beneficial than it is?

Why would the NHS and a cot death charity deliberately distort and misrepresent health research in order to make more women breastfeed?

RedToothBrush · 15/03/2015 18:36

The difference is is that most of them weren't born in the UK and raised in a culture where formula feeding is the normal way to feed babies.

What are the social support structures like in this culture?

sparkysparkysparky · 15/03/2015 18:45

This thread is not about the relative merits of any method of feeding, it is about how people feel when so - called health care professionals refuse to talk about one method over the other. And how that feels when all you want to do is FEED YOUR BABY.

tobysmum77 · 15/03/2015 18:51

It isn't 'class' is it? It's a way of thinking, the fact that everyone is different.

I think all this 'breastfeeding culture' stuff is nonsense. First we need a culture that supports mums and babies rather than one upmanship. And purdey your posts on the negative side reek of that.

tobysmum77 · 15/03/2015 18:52

social support structures
^^ this

LePetitMarseillais · 15/03/2015 18:58

You do stat twist and scaremonger as you embellish and make inferences from your links.I have no problem with said link but on previous threads you and others have used indirect speech and pretty much said ffing puts babies at risk from cot death.You also conveniently choose to leave out the fact that SIDS is extremely rare with very low numbers and the maj of babies are ff.

MrsDeVere · 15/03/2015 18:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lotsofcheese · 15/03/2015 19:00

We need evidence-based, UK-specific guidelines, rather than the universal WHO recommendations, about INFANT feeding.

This would allow women to make informed choices. And perhaps not feel like failures, if BF doesn't work out.

birobenny · 15/03/2015 19:17

Leave poor minifingers alone - she only wants us all to know that FF babies ARE MORE LIKELY TO DIE from sids. no agenda there at all.

When I had my second child the ONLY piece of advice in the whole maternity notes thing was the very helpful information that ff babies had a higher chance of developing leukemia. No idea whether that's true or not but I suspect that little nugget of information was slipped in my someone of the MInifingers school of bf 'promotion'

lotsofcheese · 15/03/2015 19:21

Which is why NICE guidelines on infant feeding would address the misinformation. And stop the self-righteous, judgemental attitudes

LePetitMarseillais · 15/03/2015 19:25

You're far more likely to have a baby die from SIDS if you co- sleep or smoke than anything else but Mini continuously likes to ignore that fact along with the fact that using a dummy protects babies from SIDS.

antumbra · 15/03/2015 19:39

LePetitMarseillais - you show a very poor understanding of SIDS.

LittleBearPad · 15/03/2015 19:41

No she doesn't Antumbra. Co-sleeping and smoking increase sids risks, a dummy helps to mitigate the risk as does bf. What exactly is incorrect about Lepetit's post?

Only1scoop · 15/03/2015 19:44

I also nothing displaying a 'poor understanding' in LP's post either.

Only1scoop · 15/03/2015 19:45

See nothing

tobysmum77 · 15/03/2015 20:02

yeah I've mentioned dummies in previous threads on this and been totally blanked. Strange......Confused

RedToothBrush · 15/03/2015 20:58

a dummy protects babies from SIDS

Strictly speaking isn't this correlation rather than causation.

You only have SIDS risks factors rather than 'causes' precisely because we don't fully understand SIDS.

Therefore a dummy can not 'protect'

Mute point, but we are talking about how information is used and presented so is relevant.

RedToothBrush · 15/03/2015 21:57

Just out of interest - when the the Lullaby Trust (the main uk SIDS charity) say "Breastfeeding Studies have consistently shown a reduced risk of SIDS in breastfed infants. Exclusive breastfeeding (i.e. those who have never fed with formula milk) is associated with the lowest risk, but breastfeeding of any duration may be beneficial for lowering the chance of SIDS compared to formula feeding alone."

... and I quote it, without changing a single word, how is that 'stat twisting'?

When we look at this we need to understand that formula does not necessarily cause SIDS. There is only a correlation.

This means that there could be something specific about the group of people who are formula feeding that makes them different from the group of people who are breast feeding.

For example (and for the sake of argument because I've been making a point of it in recent posts), if the group of formula feeders have a poorer support network than the group of breast feeders then there may be a difference. eg: potentially there may be information shared that makes one group notice a problem sooner than the other.

Or

If the reason the formula feeders are using formula is because breast feeding failed this could be to do with a higher rate of undiagnosed tongue tie or high palates (or something else) which makes breast feeding more difficult. This could also potentially affect breathing and therefore death. (I have no idea if this is true - its just an example)

Or

Babies who take dummies more easily have different shaped mouths so are less susceptible to problems relating to breathing and therefore death. (Again just a potential idea to show an example)

Just because lots of studies show something similar, equally does not necessarily show a clear pattern unless you look at exactly what they are comparing and whether it is a fair comparison.

You should be wary of anything that shows a correlation rather than a cause. That doesn't mean you shouldn't avoid something (if there is an increased risk, it might be a good idea to) however it doesn't mean that the thing you are avoiding is actually the cause (you may not be able to avoid that cause because its still there regardless of your behaviour).

The real problem here, is that unless the formula fed babies are selected at random rather than self selected because of problems breastfeeding, in a study this will create a methodology which is potentially flawed in nature.

You would assume that the NHS would look at stuff like this when they give information to the public. Unfortunately its very common that scrutiny is not properly given to studies and what they actually show is not critically examined. For example, it is very common for stats on CS and VBs to be compared with ELCS being combined with EMCS. However what matters is actually the planned method of birth; the risk of an EMCS should be included in the risks of a planned VB versus the risk of a planned ELCS because it is a potential outcome of a VB. (There are certain reasons why you might look at this differently but for the most part this is the way studies should be carried out and presented, however they are not).

It is CRUCIAL that HCPs and the NHS really do start to tackle misinterpretation and misrepresentation of data like this because it can tell a very different story and people may make different decisions based on that information. However we are a long way off that.

I hope this explanation helps a few people question studies and stats in a more critical way. Its not an easy thing to get your head around tbh. They have tested doctors on this in the past and found the number who don't understand is worryingly high.

(Bit off topic but I think the debate is getting too bogged down it X causes Y when actually we haven't a Scooby doo if that's really true by a few people).

tiktok · 16/03/2015 08:11

I hope people will check the dummies and SIDS research before assuming it can be interpreted as protective - it's more nuanced than that, much more. It looks as if the risk increases if the dummy is habitually used and is then not....but to be honest, none of the research gives consistent correlation.

HCPs and others should always answer parents' questions about formula and share information and support whenever needed. I can sympathise with a midwife in a breastfeeding class not wanting to go into detail about formula feeding (she has to deliver the session others have come for) but there are ways to handle questions about it, and I have a particular aversion to 'artificial feeding' which is a horrible put down, even if it is technically the text book term.

A midwife or anyone else at an antenatal session should know suffiicient about formula feeding to cope well with questions, maybe one to one after the breastfeeding session.

I don't agree that people need detailed instruction or guidance weeks or even months before the baby is even born (they won't remember), but it's prob a good idea to flag up that people do need to read the packet because there are safe and unsafe ways of preparing formula - they might remember that.

Sallystyle · 16/03/2015 08:45

You can no longer make bottles up and store them in the fridge for 24 hours?

I always made mine up in the morning and warmed them up in the microwave. What a pain in the arse to have to make them up and cool them down for every feed, especially if the baby is screaming in hunger because it wants feeding earlier than you expected.

I mostly had midwives who were greatly supportive of my choice to FF. I bf a couple for a week or so and the midwives never cared when I switched over. I feel quite sorry for new parents who have so much pressure on them to bf and have to put up with the judgments if they don't.

Both bf and ff should be entitled to and receive support.

comeagainforbigfudge · 16/03/2015 10:07

U2TheEdge you can still make up bottles and keep in fridge for 24hours.

BUT it needs to made correctly in first place So with hot enough water to kill bacteria in the formula, then quickly cooled and stored in fridge (at the back).

That was what I read on hipp organic website anyways. Might be different for other brands.

Hth