My friend keeps using this racist term

[Mrsbird311]

A really good friend has on the last couple of occasions used this term to describe someone from Pakistan each time I've said to her that people don't use that term and that it's very offensive but she won't have it, she says its just short for Pakistan, like we would call a Scottish person a scot, I don't see it like this and told her that it is really offensive she then got cross with me and said I'd gone all PC on her, I told her she sounded like an Alf garnet type bigot, I know she isn't a racist person in the slightest but she can't see this is offensive who is BU?

......also as others are sharing their story feel free to tell this to your friend as an example of the seriousness.

When I was a teenager a white lad in my year stalked me he literally would not leave me alone. In the end I screamed at him one day to please stop turning up at places I was etc he then called me a fucking "p%# slag and N#+% bitch"

I was so so upset I didn't want to leave the house. My mum went wow shit and the police got involved. It was horrible and has a lot if negative connotations for lots of other people.

mussalman means muslim, so not specific to being Pakistani.

Thinks its more of an Orientalist / Colonialist term and is/was used for Arabs, Turks, Persians or anybody of a muslim faith.

I lived in UK at least 10 yrs before I ever heard it. Actually I tried to use it as an abbreviation (table heading in social science study) and got told off & dirty looks. I was confused, had genuinely never ever heard it before.
I still think I've heard it much more on Radio4 than ever in real life.

chillyegg that is awful. Your mum sounds amazing though. .

When you experience something like that, the word becomes a trigger. I know when I hear or see that word I remember being absolutely terrified and furious.

just using a stupid word does not make you racist. meaning the word in an insulting way (or thinking insulting things) makes you a racist.

using a word you know others find offensive when you don't mean it that way makes you a prick. (Reginald P Hunter I am looking at you)

I grew up in East Lancs. There, the term had very much been reclaimed by the Asian community (not just by Pakistanis but also by other Asian nationalities) and was often used in a jokey or ironic way. It was not acceptable for it to be used by white people.

I now live in Leicester where I never hear the word. I don't think the Asian community here has adopted the ironic use of the word. It is still not acceptable here for white people to use it.

Your friend is racist.

I remember the word was racist in the UK in the 1970s so everyone who has grown up in the UK should definitely know that it still is.

the law on racial harassment does not take into account the intent, just the offence caused.
It's well known as an offendive term.
You, and anyone else, would be justified in hearing it as an offensive term even if she does not "mean it like that"
If Pakistanis ever want to reclaim it and use it ironically, that's their choice. It's a lot harder for your non-Pakistani friend to be viewed as using the word in a postmodern way

I'm told the acceptable term in India is a "Pak" (on the basis that someone from Afghanistan is an Afghan and not an Afghani).

I would like to think paki wasnt racist and would like to say it in the same way I would scot but because I know that if I do say paki that people will take it as racist then I am intending to say something that will racially offend someone so that is racist.

It's an ignorant word to use, but may not necessarily have a racist intent.

I've worked in some very white, working class isolated communities where it really was news to my classes that "P-shop" was not a socially acceptable terminology and hadn't been for over 20 years. Mind you, you wouldn't want to hear the local views about the Germans football team either.

I feel uncomfortable about the "reclaiming words" buisiness as it muddies the message about the level of offence. It is also continuing to use the word in a divisive manner even though the context is being altered. I hated it when my friend used it about herself.

What tired said. It wouldn't matter if you were in a large group of friends and everyone one of that group apart from you said it wasn't offensive it still would be because one person found it offensive.

toby never heard the term 'pak' used by any Indian person I know. As mentioned before, I'm Indian. I have heard and used Pakistani or mussalman (but like mistress has said that's a much broader term)

I am Pakistani. I find the shortened form sickening. It literally feels like a shock through my body every time I hear it. I was called it just once in my life by someone who seemed to me, a very tall big man when I was quite a small school girl aged 12. I remember how he came out of nowhere and I had to look up at him, towering over me, he was so close and kept walking closer and I was walking backwards trying to get away from him. He looked so menacing and kept asking "what are you looking at, paki"

I remember the fear and shock that gripped me. I just wanted to cry. I could feel his breath on me so I looked down. Luckily for me, he then walked off. I remember looking around (i was at a bus stop in the city centre, in school uniform) and seeing what all of a sudden felt like a sea of white faces all looking at me and not a single one of those adults intervened. A few were even smiling. This was in the 90's and it is actually upsetting me writing this as I can remember the raw fear and confusion. I didnt know what i had done. I never told my mum and dad, still cannot explain why. I felt humiliated.

sorry, that was long.

That must have been terrifying Steelthunder. What a nasty person. A horrible moment that has probably affected you ever since

My mum is amazing I'm lucky, she's a a tough cooky and doesn't put up with shit!

It shows you how ignorant the lad was though. I think you should show her this thread. There's are many people who've experienced horrible racism and it's awful and offensive word that can be a trigger.
Quite frankly her suddenly using it just doesn't cut It because her mate said it was "ok".
I have so many mates who have been subjected to racist shit.
Last week my HV came over for the 1st time and asked in her words what my "hubby" did I said he owned a shop and takeaway and a property business. She replied with "oh is it an Indian takeaway you own then"

This shit boils my piss.

I think your mate knows it's racist and quite frankly I think she is saying the P word;
A) because she's bought into all this bullshit ukip media hype.

B) is attention seeking because unless she's lived a bubble she'll know it's racist.

It is technically correct to call someone from Pakistan a Paki. Actually Pak is better as the i is added to aid pronunciation.

Stan means homeland in Farsi.

Kurdistan = homeland of the Kurds
Afghanistan = homeland of the Afghans
Pakistan = homeland of the Paks

To call someone from Pakistan a Pakistani is as absurd as calling someone from Poland a Polander. Finland a Finland, Scotland a Scotlander.

The only reason not to use the correct term Pak or Paki is because many people have used that term in a derogatory manner.

Why not reclaim the correct term rather than let the bigots force the rest of us to use other words?

Ok then let's also reclaim the term bastard. That's technically correct for someone born out of wedlock.

Ffs has the rest of this thread bypassed you?

I actively hate that word and have no interest in reclaiming it. I have flashbacks to being 18 years old and being threatened by a large drunk man when I hear it.

The fact that's it's been used as a pejorative is reason enough for me to want it to fall out of common speech.

I'm intrigued by this as logically I would think if someone is actually from Pakistan it's not different to calling some from Scotland a scot, (I am aware that is generally used as a racist term & thankfully v rarely hear it)

However, what really riles me is the fact that everyone is so adamant that if a Pakistani person uses it, or a gay person uses poof, a black person nigga etc, then we all say 'oh that's ok then as they're reclaiming it'. Wtf? Why do they get to use an offensive term, while at the same time, another person who isn't in the same 'group' doesn't? That makes no sense to me. If it's the possible intent caused rather than the intention that's the issue, then for me at least, it's as offensive, or often more offensive to hear the term coming from the same group who find it reprehensible from others.

What am I missing?

phoebeophelia- I can't remember when I last read such bullshit.

"What am I missing?"

A brain?

Like others I know people who are indian/Pakistani who use it themselves. I don't think the word on its own is racist, I don't think words can be racist, only people can be racist.

I don't get that the word can be reclaimed and used by one group but cant be used by another group... That doesn't make any sense at all.

Btw that is how people are described by their nationality in that part of the world.

Pakistan - Pakistani
India - Hindustani (after Hindustan)
Kashmir - kashmiri
Bengal - Bengali
Punjab - Punjabi

I had a similar situation recently - as an Arsenal fan I hate it when fellow fans refer to Spurs supporters as 'Yids' (even though it's often used by Spurs fans to describe themselves) and told a mate who also supported Arsenal and used this word to describe Spurs fans that not only is it insulting to Jewish people but also to a large part of the Arsenal fanbase (ironically Arsenal apparently have a higher percentage of Jewish fans in their fanbase that Spurs do) and that it's unacceptable. His argument that 'they use it themselves' just doesn't wash, he wouldn't approach a Jewish person and refer to them as a Yids so why refer to Spurs supporters in a term that's quite racist, derogatory and unacceptable to the majority? I'm not Jewish but find it quite sickening myself, especially as it helps to perpetuate the already tarnished image of football fans who by and large are not all racist thugs.

I had a word with my friend about it, they apologised and decided not to use that term any more. He explained that it wasn't meant in a racist way and was more a way to express tribal banter amongst football fans (which I understood) but accepted that on reflection not everyone takes it that way & didn't want to offend anyone further which I thought was a reasonable action. If your friend can't see the light in a similar fashion then I'd ask yourself this - would you want to be associated with someone who is not only happy to use blatantly racist language but is totally unapologetic about it?

I can't believe your post, Phoebe - are you blind or just incredibly thick insensitive?

Have you read the posts from enormouse, chilly and now Steel as well?

But no, that's ok - let's just tromp over the feelings of a large number of people who have suffered from the racially abusive usage of the term, just because you, a purist, want to be able to say it. Nice.