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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think this is unacceptable and wonder why Scotland is fair game for racist attacks like this

327 replies

ScotsWhaHae · 09/03/2015 13:11

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2015/mar/09/steve-bells-if-

It's not even funny.

Incest? Wtf?

I'm disappointed in the guardian. It raises the question though, substitute the Scottish references for some other nation, would that be acceptable?

We got told repeatedly about the anti English sentiment north of the border last year, during the referendum. Shit like this isn't appearing in Scottish editions of the news papers.

Along with the casual racism lets add sexism into the mix. We have a female first minister. Repeatedly in main stream media I hear people talk about Alex salmond and the snp. He's not the leader of the party or the first minister. Is the press that out if touch with Scottish politics or are they just ignoring Nicola on account of her begin female?

And let's not get started on 'the wee lassie with a tin helmet' comment. But that won't be in any of the English editions will it?

OP posts:
backwardpossom · 09/03/2015 22:37

Um, English, Ubik

Ludways · 09/03/2015 22:40

I have a huge lack of humour when it comes to England/Scotland hatred. It royally pisses me off regardless of which direction it is going. English mum, Scottish dad, I'm bloody British!

The cartoon isn't funny.

ScotsWhaHae · 09/03/2015 22:43

It just trips of the tounge for some people doesn't it?

OP posts:
Ubik1 · 09/03/2015 22:44

You think being English is an ethnicity?

ShebaRabbit · 09/03/2015 22:46

Yes Ubik, English is an ethnicity, what do you think it is?

Ubik1 · 09/03/2015 22:46

Really?

Wow

ShebaRabbit · 09/03/2015 22:50

This is going to blow your mind ubik Grin
www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/ethnicity

Ubik1 · 09/03/2015 22:52

So...ethnicity is about which country you are born in?

Ubik1 · 09/03/2015 22:55

The fact or state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition:

Can I ask.., what are these English cultural traditions of which you speak? What 'social group' ?

ShebaRabbit · 09/03/2015 22:57

I don't have the time or inclination for the Socratic elenchus if that's where you're heading Ubik, go and do some reading around ethnicity, not the stuff you find on Stormfront mind.

ZoomZoomToTheMoon · 09/03/2015 23:46

There is a lot of debate about what ethnicity actually is, I once copy-edited a very, very long academic tome about it. The conclusion seemed to be that one of the key deciding factors is what ethnicity you consider yourself to be. Others include your official nationality, religious/cultural affiliations and to an extent your DNA but it can be quite a hard thing to pin down.

I'm originally English, lived in Scotland for a long time but feel English. But I know people who have a similar history and feel Scottish.

MoustacheofRonSwanson · 10/03/2015 02:18

5foot5 The Houndsbitch

I think you can categorically call it racism. People in Scotland who use the word "english" as a term of abuse have been charged, successfully, with racism. Using racist abuse is also an automatic charge- the police/victim have no discretion to drop the case/ask for it to be dropped.

Toadinthehole · 10/03/2015 04:33

to think this is unacceptable

YABU because it is a free country and you do not have the right not to be offended.

and wonder why Scotland is fair game

Because there is nothing special about Scotland. Scotland is not the subject of more rude jokes than other countries. But anyway, that's beside the point. More relevantly, there is nothing special about Scottish politicians - even nationalist ones - that makes it wrong to make them the subject of satire.

You are making the classic mistake of assuming that Salmond and Sturgeon somehow represent the nation and values of Scotland. Perhaps they do. I don't know. I don't think anyone can know. I certainly don't think Steve Bell knows, which is why his cartoon is more obviously an attack on their politics.

Would you think it racist if Steve Bell made a cartoon depicting Nigel Farage as a hobbit wearing a tweed jacket and deerstalker, standing on Dover beach shaking his fist at the Dark Lord over in Brussels? If you do, you seriously need to take a lie down or a cold bath. As for me, I'd laugh at a cartoon like that, particularly if it suggested that he wanted to create a strange cultural paradise where everyone was inbred, ie, a provincial backwater.

Come to think of it, if there are many people like you, in the name of free speech, nationalist politicians need to be satirised again and again and again. Otherwise, they will become above criticism, and that cannot be right.

for racist attacks like this

It is true that being touchy is considered a Scottish stereotype. Unfortunately you have just played right up to it.

That said, I don't think it was one of Steve Bell's best efforts. I preferred this one. And ooh look! This one manages to be racist to two ethnic groups at once!

ZoomZoomToTheMoon · 10/03/2015 08:19

Yes satirised, toad. Politicians do need to be satirised and sometimes Steve Bell does that.

There isn't a shred of meaningful satire in what this cartoon is trying to say about Scotland or Sturgeon (or even Salmond). What you're describing re Farage would be relevant to him and taking the piss out of his politics, and that would be satire.

I loathe Farage but if Bell did a cartoon of him saying he demanded the right to incest I'd be furious on his behalf too.

You are making the mistake of thinking free speech means it's a good idea to just insult people with the worst possible insult you can imagine because you are free to. Actually, there is such a thing as hate speech, and free speech does have limits delineated by things like libel, motivation to racial hatred, etc.

Yes, we should treasure our free speech and use it to satirize our politicians. So I'll applaud Bell when he does that. This isn't that.

ZoomZoomToTheMoon · 10/03/2015 08:25

It is true that being touchy is considered a Scottish stereotype. Unfortunately you have just played right up to it.

This is a classic response used to belittle someone who fails to have a sense of humour about racist abuse or "friendly"/"funny" racist "banter" directed at them. Funnily enough, it's also an old chestnut that most women will have heard if they object to sexism or harassment.

"Ooh, you're touchy"
"Oooh, sense of humour failure"

"You're playing up to the stereotype"

Funnily enough I've also experienced this attitude regarding anti-English racism in Scotland. Anyone can pull this trick. But I feel the same about English attacks on Scots. It is not on.

ScotsWhaHae · 10/03/2015 08:25

YABU because it is a free country and you do not have the right not to be offended

I beg to differ. If it's a free country and people have the right to offend, I have the right to feel offended. What you don't have is the right to tell me what I feel.

Satire, as I've mentioned, is fine. This isn't either fine or satire.

It's crass and offensive.

You might not think the first minister and former first minister represent Scotland or it's values. The saltire certainly does though.

Your Farage cartoon example, whilst detailed, is irrelevant and nonsensical as a comparative situation.

So Scottish people are touchy are they? That's news to me.

Is being fed up of racial abuse and saying so touchy?

I'm still waiting to see a cartoon by a Scottish publication being quite as offensive to the English.

OP posts:
ScotsWhaHae · 10/03/2015 08:33

Why not use Sturgeon? She's the First Minister of Scotland and the leader of the SNP, not Salmond.

Why is she being denied that?

Is it because they think people are too thick to know who she is?

to think this is unacceptable and wonder why Scotland is fair game for racist attacks like this
OP posts:
ScotsWhaHae · 10/03/2015 08:45

And this gem today

'Ginger rats are feared to be invading us from Scotland'

The non story is about rats being spotted on an industrial estate 20 miles away from the border.

So what's the purpose of this? To spread hate, distrust, fear and suspicion?

to think this is unacceptable and wonder why Scotland is fair game for racist attacks like this
OP posts:
nochocolateforlentteacake · 10/03/2015 08:57

At least noone will get shot over the cartoon.

I don't think that suggesting incest is a national passtime is funny. Bad taste and offensive. Creepy actually. I agree with others that had it been said about other groups within the UK, there'd be uproar.

Ubik1 · 10/03/2015 09:12

Ok so from thus thread I have learned that 'the English' and 'the Scots' are separate ethnicities - in fact Scots are an ethnic minority.

It's only up to someone of minority Scots ethnicity to decide whether that cartoon is racist or not.

Any attempt to say that the overwhelming evidence is that there are folk in the UK who are facing huge barriers due to their minority ethic/sexual orientation/disabled status - but arguing that the Scottish people are not one of those groups is 'minimising.'

fWIW I think the cartoon is offensive - but so what.

DowntownFunk · 10/03/2015 09:15

Scotswayhae, the reason Salmond is on that poster is that he's the one standing in the Westminster election in May.

Labour and the Tories, in particular and certainly the media are intent on making SNP politicians figures of ridicule. It's very flattering actually. It shows that SNP are seen as a threat.

I went to see the Scottish cabinet at an open meeting last month (they're doing them up and down the country, if you want to go you apply online). They're approachable, seem decent, hard working and talk with the people, not at them. They endeavoured to answer all questions, if not on the night, by email if you filled in a form. I can see why others are worried. Here are a bunch of people getting in with doing their job, setting a good example. They are working for their employers (us), rather than treating them with contempt.

ScotsWhaHae · 10/03/2015 09:58

Who mentioned a minority ubik?

We all belong to an ethnicity.

OP posts:
DaygloYellowLady · 10/03/2015 09:59

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win" - Mahatma Gandhi.
Like DowntownFunk says its actually quite flattering and a sign that things are changing.
This election is the first one in ages where there could actually be a real difference in how things are done and the Westminister bigwigs and the rest of the establishment are a bit scared.
Its not just in Scotland, people are taking an interest in politics over the whole UK, its just that it started in Scotland with the referendum so we're getting the rough treatment first.

Theoretician · 10/03/2015 10:21

I loathe Farage but if Bell did a cartoon of him saying he demanded the right to incest I'd be furious on his behalf too.

The cartoon, once you understand it, isn't saying anyone is actually in favour of incest and country dancing. It only appears to say that if you don't understand it.

(I also didn't get the "joke", until it was explained, despite knowing that quote.)

FannyFifer · 10/03/2015 10:38

I understand the quote, but it really doesn't work at all in this context.

"Try anything once except incest & line dancing"

So saying that SNP will try anything once including incest & scottish country dancing, how is that satirical or funny, linking incest with country dancing which a lot of people actually do is fucking offensive.

But yes we are all so touchy, honestly it's constant, the denigration of our country & people, the undercurrent is always there.