AIBU to think that my Dad is out of line and should back off on this?

[Marmiteandjamislush]

As background: It is Lent and we are very observant.

My Dad is here, as he is every day teaching the boys. I was setting the table for lunch and I put out a jug of water. DS2 (just 4) starts whinging that he doesn't want water, he wants juice. Now, to me he is just being a pain because we don't have juice with meals as a matter of course anyway, he has been very willful over the last few days anyway, because this is the first Lent that we have made him do 'properly' in that we have said no to anything sweet, fried or leaven at all and no red meat. I don't think this is a problem, his brother is just 6 and has done it from the same age. Anyway, so I serve the meal, veg broth and Matza. DS2 is still whining and refusing to eat, saying, 'I'm too thirsty, I'm too thirsty, Meenor!' His name for my Dad.

Dad then says to me 'How can you see your child suffer like this? I never denied you a drink as a child.'

I answered that I am not denying him anything, he is choosing not to drink the water and is only playing up to an audience.

A little later, [DS2still whining] I nip out to the loo, and come back to find DS2 has got a glass of squash!

AIBU to think that my Dad should have stuck to my rules in my own house?

FYI, kitchen has been cleaned for Lent, so he had to purposefully walk through to my office the garage to get the juice from the child inaccessible cupboard!

The views of some non-religious people make me sad. There's something inherently fundamentalist about someone insisting that someone else's way of life is "wrong", whether or not the way of life is based on religion. There's non-religious and then there's anti-religious.

I'm of non-white descent and I raise my DD observing some traditions from that, even though I don't believe in it in a religious sense. It's part of her heritage. If someone mocked that I would label that person as racist. Why is religion any different?

I think YANBU OP. I would have been furious.

Thank you for the reply Marmite. Its all very interesting.

So eloquently put, bethatasitmay. Exactly what I wanted to say, but was unable to do so!

Just wanted to say in amongst all the vile comments on here. That as an atheist, I may not believe the same things as you, but I do believe you're a good mum. Judging by your posts.

No probs Wee. Re music, we are not supposed to listen to vocal music, outside of worship. As for what do I gain from living as I do, that is quite hard to answer in a direct sense, I suppose it is a sense of security and purpose to life, which wouldn't be there if I didn't. I find it hard to believe that we are here, different from any other animal with the ability to learn and develop for no 'reason'.

I'm amazed at some of the intolerance on display on this thread

WTF does the OP's religion have to do with anything? Her dad undermined her in her own house by interfering with her parenting decisions. Without the Lent distraction detail if she'd just said 'we don't have squash at meals and DS was whining, my dad gave him some behind my back' she'd have had a near unanimous YANBU. As it is she's being aggressively grilled for her beliefs.

WTF, MN

Mrs Reagan That's a lovely thing to say, thank you.

OP, while we've got you here as a captive can you please tell me why you think your god would be bothered about what his followers eat? I can understand restrictions on meat but I just don't understand why a god who is all merciful, all powerful, omnipresent etc could care less about a person having orange squash.

I always think you should be able to tell who is religious by their actions - so, in your other thread where you bought the hungry woman food, I would say you were being religious (ie following what Jesus would have done) and the shopkeeper wasn't.

However, if you read a newspaper during Lent that doesn't actually make a difference to a god or to human happiness. It just doesn't matter to anyone. The people selling newspapers have to live, to pay their rent or mortgages, to feed their children. You're actually doing more harm by suddenly not buying a newspaper, surely? If there was a big enough community of people doing that then there would be redundancies every Lent.

So, do you think your god is glad that people obey (what I would call petty) rules? Do you think he would judge you if you didn't? If not, why do them? For the sake of the community?

And do you equate feeding a starving person with not buying a newspaper during Lent in terms of 'goodness'?

I can't get past forcing a religion on a 4 year old. Even if I agreed with bringing children up with that sort of thing (which I do not) he isn't old enough to understand anyway - he can't give up willingly which I'd have thought defeats the object.

I was going to say it's interesting to see a Christian religion that clearly acknowledges that Jesus was an observant Jew, but then I read your explanation and now I'm not sure at all.

But no matter. I can look it up.

ImperialBlether, don't expect any of it to have any logic.

Not, I think its about getting the child used to something from a young age. Here children arent supposed to fast till they reach puberty but they do actually do practice fasts for a few years beforehand. Not whole day fasts, but maybe from breakfast to lunch etc, that kind of thing.

OP, how do you get on with the fact that the air around you and in your house, is full of wild yeast? Your bread is leavened, for the simple reason that unless you're making it in a vacuum, wild yeasts will get in the mix.

Clearly science wasn't as advanced during the time of the writing of the first 5 books of the Old Testament but then an awful lot of stuff was unkown/undiscovered 4,000 years ago (the fossil record for example)

So, you make a dough-mix, you don't make it in a vacuum and it's immediately got a raising-agent in the form of a wild-yeast. Are you now breaking the law?

Good for you on not mutilating your children, I hope they stay close to you for your lifetime and not choose to stay away because of your religous beliefs.

wee

I could understand that line of thinking if the child in question was old enough to understand. But at 4 there is no was he does.

Until I was about 8 I thought everyone had to be a Christian. Like it was the law or something.

I went to a church school. Can't imagine where I mighty have picked that up from.

RandomNPC, I can't see any logic in it myself, just wondered whether the OP could.

Ok,Wee that's right.

Line what bit doesn't make sense, I will try and clarify if I can (I am no scholar though)

Imperial, it is about sacrifice as Jesus was sacrificed and how he lived for forty days and nights without food.

Norland, that all sounds very complex but the easy answer is I would mix flour and liquid together at this time. As for air borne yeast, I am not choosing to ingest those, I have to breath.

I am very interested in your religion - like many others on here I can't believe I have lived nearly 50 years and this is the first I have heard of it.

I do have a really shallow question - as marmite has yeast and jam has sugar, does that mean you can't have either of these during the passover section of lent?

If he was that thirsty he would have drunk the water! I don't think the issue at hand here is giving up things for lent, it's that your dad should have respected your decision as a parent.

It sort of feels like some of the questions are to try and 'catch' OP out as opposed to any real interest. Just so they can say oh but that just sounds all a bit illogical and does it really matter when they didn't have newspapers 1000 yrs ago etc.

fwiw OP it sounds like a very simple existence which I could never do myself but sounds like a perfectly happy life for your children. Big whoop they can't watch TV or eat sweet stuff for a month. It's hardly SS stuff is it?

This is fascinating, genuinely. I grew up in a non religious household and follow no religion with my children, so it's really interesting to read.

I'm sorry you have had some nasty comments (your dad was being unreasonable by the way), could I ask a few non judgement questions? Feel free not to answer!

I was wondering how a day goes in your home? For me and my children, we spend quite a bit of time doing things that you don't. Like many people, we watch tv, listen to music, the DC go to school, they use iPads, Netflix, xboxes etc. I think I would find it really difficult living without that sort of stuff, although I guess you don't miss it if you've never had it.

I'm imaging a sort of Amish life style. I am probably way off.

What do you do for fun? We go to the cinema, and stuff like that which you can't do. You said your children go to secular activity groups, do you think this will be a problem as they get older? In 10 years time, considering the technology and things we have access to on smart phones and stuff, how will you be able to prevent them from accessing things that you believe they shouldn't? And relationships, are they generally inter faith?

So many questions

Lent is a red herring. The op said no juice so her dad shouldn't have overruled her.

I'm surprised by the amount of religious intolerance here. Fair enough, it is more extreme than giving up sweets but it is hardly abusive. If the op had posted that she was trying to help her children eat less sugar then she'd have been congratulated.

Presse, I can't have them, no

I don't get the point of a 'pointless' sacrifice though. I can understand doing things for other people (ie charity work) but not doing things just to make yourself feel artificially deprived of something seems so old fashioned and a bit bizarre.

Marmiteandjamislush
With reference to the point I'm making re wild-yeast; it's going to get into your mix (I like making sourdough bread, amongst other breads) so have done a fair bit of reading on this.

As such, irrespective of your choice of ingestion as to your breathing, you ARE making leavened bread. Presumably your church elders would be able to pass judgement on this?

Last time I checked we have freedom of religion in the UK fellow MN'ers?

OP - every day is a school day for me too. I'd never heard of Torah Observant Christians before your post.

I think you're a brave woman to serve veg broth and crackers for lunch to two young boys [I couldn't personally deal with all the whinging] when I think baked potatoes might meet both the fasting criteria and keep everyone feeling a bit fuller but it's your own business and not mine.

Your house, your rules so your Dad should not undermine you particularly if he is of the same faith, just not as observant. That just smacks of someone who is deliberately setting out in a passive aggressive manner to demonstrate to your children that they think you have chosen an unreasonable/unnecessary lifestyle.