Friend said this was pfb

[holidayroad]

I was talking to my friend the other day, she asked what schools I put down for my DD's primary school admission (she starts reception in September).

The schools near me are all oversubscribed and we have visited 5 of them. I explained that we had struggled to narrow down our choice after visiting the first 5, so arranged to visit them all again just before the closing date.

One school refused to allow us a 2nd visit - now I appreciate that it is a big school and a lot of parents want their DC to go there, but I used their refusal to allow us a 2nd visit as a basis to rule that school out as I feel if they are not prepared to go above and beyond for us on the selection basis then they cannot possibly be the best school for my DC.

My friend has DC at this school and said I was being ridiculously pfb to expect them to arrange a 2nd visit.

I think this is too important a decision to be taken lightly.

So over to you, who is BU?

Considering how hands on parents tend to be these days I can totally see why schools would say no to individual second visits. If 20 parents a year ask for a second visit, that's 20 times that a member of staff has to be made available to leisurely escort parents around the same classrooms they've already seen and potentially distracting children from their work. I can see why a private school might see the point in employing a parent wrangler, but why would an ordinary state school?

My DS goes to an outstanding school which is 3.5x oversubscribed for 120 places.

YABU

Ooooh, I AM SO TENSE, waiting to see if PFB gets the place or not.

PLEEEEEEASE keep us up to date OP, and no fibs!

Eek I'm hoping you aren't very disappointed on allocation day.

Goodness. If all the schools you were considering are oversubscribed, the only one you surely had a reasonable chance of getting into was your catchment one. Not putting it down even as third choice just because they didn't accommodate your request for another visit? I'm wincing at the thought!

I reckon the OP knows something we don't.

It doesn't make sense otherwise. Even if she made a genuine mistake then this thread would have caused her to panic massively. And she isn't.

Magrat - I don't think the OP knows something we don't. Her recent posts read to me as someone who has just realised that they might be on the brink of a major problem and is trying to style it out. The post about admission for the catchment school is a case in point - she's given it as evidence it will all be ok, but actually it's evidence that the school she rejected only takes from catchment unless siblings. Which means she's fucked if the schools she's actually put down are similar. She came on here wanting to know that her attitude about visits was reasonable, but in fact it's exposed a much bigger issue.

Probably true, Magrat, but the thread has moved beyond that anyway.

Many of the strange but stubborn misconceptions discussed on here are widely believed unfortunately. I hope it will help some 2016 school starters. Reading this thread and the old one MrsHathaway linked should help understand the application process. I really hope OP's dc gets into a lovely school, but if so, it will be because she fulfilled the criteria (catchment etc) for more than one school or because the schools are not that oversubscribed.

It's amazing how many people still believe myths about school admissions, eg that they have to give you one of the schools on your list of preferences, that if you only put one they have to give you that one, etc etc

I think people should stop talking about "choice" when it comes to schools, because in most cases there isn't actually a choice. It's about expressing a preference, and if you want to go to a school which isn't your nearest/catchment school, you are realistically only going to get in if they are undersubscribed.

And if a school is undersubscribed, then there's only two possible reasons:-

1. There are a more places available than the number of children who need them e.g. a village school or a place that for some reason has a had a recent drop in the birth rate and several good schools

1. Other parents do their best to avoid that school like the plague.

Schools that are able to take children from outside the catchment area are either in a really good area or a really bad one!!
In our county the 2 schools that take the most out of catchement kids in the past have been the best school in the area (because it's catchement is villages of £million houses that families either cAnt afford it if they can they also can afford private school so leaving spaces in the state primary free) or the worst school that no one wants

Yes, the only choice involved is "If you qualify for more than one school,which would you rather?"

The only way to avoid a particular school is to qualify for another and rank it higher. Your application effectively lists every school in the LA with a chance to name your top 3/5. The first step of allocation puts everybody on the lists of the schools they named, but there is a later step which puts everyone on the lists of all the schools that have any spaces left. Top 12 on the list at Sink Street go there, top 4 to Middle Of Nowhere CofE, etc.

In counties where there are more children than places (gulp) you absolutely must list a school you have half a chance of getting into.

I know someone who was determined that her child would go to a particular school in the next village, technically in the next county. So she only put that down on the application thinking they would have to give her PFB a place there.

They didnt. She got a place at the school she absolutely definitely didnt want her PFB to go to because they didnt meet the criteria to go to the village school (also oversubscribed) and so was offered a place at the nearest school with places.

Cue mother seriously pissed off and child ok because some of her friends were going there. So no, there is not a "confident" chance of your child being accomodated at any of the schools you have chosen.

Mmmm... I am thinking about a secondary school for my older child which will be undersubscribed this year I am sure.
It is really on the up [I feel ahead of the game here!] but bloody hell it takes people a long time to get over what is in the past.
Frustrating sometimes to hear improving, non complacent, on the up, good schools being avoided [and thus undersubscribed] by blinkered parents.
Class thing going on in a rather nasty way about school I am considering too. The rudeness of some of the 'avoiders' about other children who should not be around their darlings...
I maybe wrong in my case and get egg on my face but think will be proved right in the long term.
Time will tell!!
In short, being under subscribed does not necessarily mean crap.....

I've often wondered how the admission system actually works. So everyone is added to the list of their first choice school in the priority order in which they qualify until all places are filled. People who don't make the list for their first choice then get added to their second choice, unless that's full and so on. It can't work that way though as that would give priority to people who put a school first choice, whereas equal preference means that whether you qualify gets priority over who put it first choice. I don't really understand how it works.

Oh I know. Anyone who put a school as any preference is ranked in priority order. I still don't understand the order they do each step though

Class thing going on in a rather nasty way about school I am considering too. The rudeness of some of the 'avoiders' about other children who should not be around their darlings...

I heard something appalling from someone I considered to be a friend, who I thought was inclusive and well...normal.

She does not want her child to go to our local secondary because.....wow, finding it hard to actually type this.......of the amount of asian children that attend. She said that she wasnt comfortable with such a high muslim attendance (we live in a very multicultural area, she comes from a very white, very middle class village that she cant afford to go back to), and didnt want it affecting her DD's education. When I asked how on earth she thought that would happen, she couldnt answer me. I pointed out that because it is so mixed in terms of cultures, races, religions etc there was no emphasis at all on anyone of them. Its the only way they can run the school effectively, there is no religion at all apart from in the RE lessons which covers all religions. But no, not good enough.

Horrible to find out that someone you valued and cared about is an out and out racist :( Needless to say, I have now distanced myself.

Re admissions, I had this explained to me and I think (!) this is how it works although I admit I may have misunderstood!

You get put in the list for your first preference, in the order of how highly you meet the criteria. If you are below the cut off then you are put in the list for your second preference, again in order of how highly you meet the criteria, then again for the third. If there is a "dead heat" between applicants, say 10 all meet the same criteria but there are only 5 places then usually distance from the school will be used, with the 5 closest getting the places.

You are not put higher on the list if it is your first choice, you are just asking that they check your criteria for that school first. You may well lose out to people who put that school as their third choice, if they meet the criteria better than you do.

If you dont meet the criteria for any of the schools then you will be offered a place at the nearest school to you which has places. A woman in the local paper ended up with a school for her DC that was an hour and a half away from where they live via public transport. It happens!

I think it works like this.
You are put on the lists for each of the 3 schools you put down
Everyone who's put school A down wether on position 1,2 or 3 is listed in priority order, same for school b and c.
The top 30 people at each school get a place but if you qualified for a place at school A and B you would get given school A as you listed it higher. That then would free up a place at school B for person no 31 on the list. Lots of movement of lists until everyone has been placed that there is spaces for
There will then be some people who didn't get a place at any of thier 3 schools due to being tooa r down the lists. They are then allocated a place at the nearest school that has any places left over

Bogey - this happens in our catchment.

2 options - 1 primary, 1 infant and the follow on junior. Both 'good' heading towards outstanding.
The primary is CofE, and is currently the more popular school in the catchment. Reasons I've heard for picking it, directly from the mouth of parents 'drop off is earlier I can get to work and don't have to pay for breakfast club', 'means we don't have to apply again at Y3' - both valid reasons. The third and most common reason 'well it's CofE so there won't be so many muslims and polish kids there'. I have distanced myself from a lot of people!!

I'm actually very grateful, because it means that DS2 is almost certain to get a place at the lovely infants that DS1 is leaving this year (so no sibling priority for us!!). Where there are, shock horror, some polish, muslim and hindu children and the school has a lovely inclusive atmosphere.

Yes, what Brie said.

Thanks. I get it now.

Not quite.

The computercomputer computer ranks all the applicants to a school regardless of preference. There are published criteria for how it does this, eg looked after children by distance, then siblings in catchment by distance, then siblings out of catchment by distance, etc. There can't be a dead heat because there's always another rule to apply even if it's flat number in a building. Twins and September-August siblings count as a single applicant nowadays.

Anyway, once they are ranked, the computer applies a cut-off at the PAN. At some schools that's 15, others 30 or 60 or 150.

Only at this stage do preferences come in. Computer says "find each applicant who has come above the cutoff at his/her first preference, and hide all his other applications".

A bit like Candy Crush, a bunch of gaps now appear in lists and they shove up. That takes some applicants up over the cutoff - if they are first preference the rule is applied again, etc.

Eventually nothing moves. Next rule is applied: "find each applicant above the cutoff for whom it's a second choice, and hide the corresponding third (etc) preferences" though not the first. Chug chug chug.

And so on until no applicant is above the cutoff in more than one school (though may be below it, ie on a theoretical but not actual waiting list for a more preferred school).

At this point copy across all applicants without school places, and all school places without applicants. Rank all applicants against each school with places according to the published criteria, and apply the new cutoff.

Apply