To be fucked off at the fact that people won't talk about things?

[cailindana]

I'm a talker. I talk things through, sort things out, move on.

It seems that no one else in my life, bar perhaps my sister, is like that.

My parents won't talk about anything. Everything is passive-aggressive hints, sniffy one-liners. Anything that puts them in a bad light or makes them in any way uncomfortable is absolutely off limits and Must Not Ever Be Mentioned. My sister suffered a birth injury that caused her to be disabled. Did they ever once talk to her about it, tell her what had happened and what was wrong with her? Never, not once. They never ever spoke to their own daughter about her disability. When I tried to talk about being abused, it was all "you're making me feel guilty, get over it." It's never been mentioned since.

Two years ago, a long term friend and I fell out. I fucked up, I apologised, offered to talk it through, she ignored me. The friendship went very quiet. As usual, I made the first move towards reconciliation the other day, and offered to talk about what had happened. Oh no, lets not talk about it, let's just "move on." I will move on, but I am fully aware that her angry reaction was down to a heap of things she's angry about that she won't talk about. Those things are not resolved and I fully expect the friendship to go wrong again. If I don't understand what's bothering her, how can I help? How can the friendship ever improve if we don't communicate?

A different friend fucked up, I was pissed off, brought it up with him in order to get it all out in the open and sort it out. He responded briefly, then went silent. Is still silent, nearly a year later. Just won't talk to me. So, that's the end of that, years of friendship closed down.

My DH has kept silent about things for years, bottled things up. I got so fed up with it (and other things) I was on the edge of leaving. He finally opened up. Says he feels like someone has lifted the world from his shoulders. Side effect is, he cries a lot now - he can't get through even the opening credits of Call the Midwife without being in floods. But he says he feels like he's actually engaging with the world now, looking it in the eye. He talks about everything and I find his thoughts fascinating, it's like meeting a whole new wonderful person.

I see it again and again her on MN too - partners who simply won't talk to each other. It causes such misery.

I don't advocated endlessly wittering on about problems. But I do think that if something's bothering you, there is absolutely no point in storing it up and getting wound up about it - say something for god's sake!

AIBU?

To be clear I don't force anyone to talk about anything - if someone has a problem it's up to them if they want to discuss it. I just struggle to understand why someone would walk out on a 15 year friendship without a word.

cailindana I do feel for you. Many years ago I had a friend cut me off with no explanation (well, I say 'cut off', it was actually more of a 'maybe perhaps we might meet up for coffee when I get a free millisecond in the 22nd century...' PA crap) and in those days I was a great believer in talking about everything and communicating and having total honesty in relationships, so it was very, very frustrating and distressing. What I've learned since then is that not everyone is comfortable with that level of disclosure, and that I should be a lot more cautious about what I disclose to others because they may not be as trustworthy or as understanding as I expect.

Talking about things honestly is great. Good communication with each other is the business. But you can only do it with the right people in the right relationships. Forgive yourself, put this friendship behind you and move on. With hindsight you'll see you were never really as strong as you thought.

Interesting. I don't feel at all harangued by Cailin. It's not personal. She's trying to understand the point of view of people who don't like to talk about their feelings.

And fwiw, I think her friend was incredibly unreasonable with both her original gripe and the resulting fallout. Cailin did nothing shitty at all. In fact I think the only thing she's guilty of is being too nice and trying again with the 'friend'. I'd cut someone out of my life if they pulled that sort of shit on me when I'd just given birth.

Sigh.

I put in parenthesis 'and no doubt harangued' her. It's supposition. You have revealed yourself quite clearly on this thread so I don't think it's a huge leap.

And I think it's 'curious' that you pick up on this small point.

You say your crime wasn't the crime of the century - maybe not. You only have to go on Mumsnet to see the huge disparity to these kind of things.

But again, you are judging that by your own standards and dismissing how she still feels about it. Though I would imagine (supposition again) it was actually very little to do with not texting and more about your reaction afterwards and perhaps previous behaviour.

I reread your OP - you were pissed off with another friend who 'fucked up', had a go at him, told him what you thought and he decided not to bother with you again. I mean, really is there a great mystery there?

You do know most people don't go through life telling people where they have fucked up (your words)?

If you do, suffer the consequences. Most people will be shocked and upset and it might well damage your friendship or end it.

I agree with Upthechimney you have made me feel stifled - in fact I agree with her whole post.

Wow, that sucks you think you know all about how cailin behaved in a certain situation where you were not present and don't know either of the parties because she has 'revealed herself clearly' on this thread?

You've described her behaviour as 'shitty', accused her of 'haranguing' and of not respecting others.

What should we conclude about you from your comments on this thread?

I feel like I'm reading a different thread to many others.

We don't know what happened from the other person's side. However, the fact that Cailin says she cares about these people, is prepared to admit fault (to something which IMO was actually the result of friend being an over-sensitive diva - come on, who here would do such a thing to a woman who's just given birth?) and is happy to resume a friendship after 2 years on said friend's terms tells me that she's actually a pretty decent person.

I'm the kind of person that fucks up relationships by going quiet and distancing myself and I would be ever so grateful if I had a friend like Cailin who didn't give up on me. Instead I've lost genuine friends because of my own hangups over communication. I don't blame them, it's my fault, and I'm trying hard to be more honest when it would save a whole lot of heartache.

Calling her a 'dog with a bone' is just plain uncalled for. Why isn't she allowed to defend herself? Why must she be told that she's awful and no wonder her friends don't want to talk to her? Sometimes it really is other people. Hell, a lot of the time it's me!

Spot on TheFowl and Smegs

Cailin, isn't any of this thread making you rethink your position in the slightest? You say in your OP that no one else in your life takes your position on talking things through, and detailed two important, longterm friendships that foundered because, in your view, the other party wouldn't talk through a quarrel or hurt, and a lot of people on here who seem reasonable enough and aren't ill-disposed towards you are using terms like 'stifling'...?

Well apparently Rat I'm supposed to accept whatever non-talkers and just move on. They're perfectly entitled to freeze me out because that's what they need to do but I'm not allowed to do anything, no matter what I might need. I just have to take it and get over it.
What I'll be definitely doing is giving non-talkers a big swerve from now on - we're clearly not suited. I have a few great friends who do talk. I am very close to one particular friend and also my younger sister.

The friendship with the guy who fucked up wasn't going well anyway, I don't miss him.

Yep Cailin because the world is just made up of non-talkers who are sulky, malicious, morally weak creatures.

And brave, strong, honest, open talkers.

There is no in between.

The people who strongly disagree with you and they are simply 'non talkers'.

That's all you will see and all you will take away from this thread.

Doesn't matter that us 'non talkers' do in fact talk a lot when we feel it's needed.

I am in a 25 year happy marriage for example. I don't think I would be if I never talked to my husband about anything other than the price of eggs would I?

The huge majority on here are trying to tell you the same thing.

And it isn't 'projection' Tiz - it is supposition and deduction.

The Fowl I don't know what you should suppose about me from this thread but if you took the time (you don't have to obviously) to read all my posts - many of which have been supportive - you would get a pretty rounded and accurate view of me.

I never said I was brave, strong, open and honest, but glad that's the supposition and deduction you make about me :)

It most certainly is.

I can't bring myself to use a passive aggressive smiley face.

People, myself included, have tried to help you here if you actually go back and read this thread.

Good luck.

I wish I was like you! Need to take a leaf from your book. However, my issue is something that cannot be compromised on so we could talk all we wanted and get no further forward.

Can I just offer another perspective on something that's become awfully polarised here?

Cailin, I wonder if there's a reason you have an awful lot of dysfunctional non-talkers around you (and I'm not talking about anyone on this thread, but in RL, just to be 100% clear and non-ambiguous). Relax, it's nothing you've 'done'. Back in the days when I was a bit of a self-help junkie, I became very interested in transactional analysis and psychodynamic theory. What I took from this was (a) the idea that one person can often end up doing the 'feeling' and emotional work for another person or group of people and (b) that feelings can be deceptive little beasts and actually be a cover or 'racket' feeling for another emotion entirely that is just too difficult or frightening to process.

From what I can gather, there are a whole lot of cans of worms/skeletons in cupboards/elephants in living rooms (insert cliche of choice) in your family's emotional life and they spend a lot of time locking them away. You, however, insist on finding the keys and opening the doors. In a family like yours, talking about your feelings is akin to starting the French Revolution, and if you've been cast as a troublemaker already, hey, you may as well be a revolutionary. So far, so adolescent.

This, however, messes up your boundaries and your day-to-day interactions. Your family conversations are probably full of a push-me-pull-you dynamic whereby you are constantly chasing replies where none are forthcoming, decoding body language to stop an emotional mine from blowing up in your face, feeling others' emotions for them, attempting to put words to their actions just so you can work out what the hell's going on. Take that into the outside world and you end up with the sort of friends who let you do all the emotional work. Not to mention that over-reading situations and trying to 'fix' impossible people become an ingrained habit. Your erstwhile friend is a spoilt madam who can't understand that the birth of a child is just slightly more important than making her numero uno on your contacts list. You shouldn't have apologised. You're not upset with yourself. You're angry with her, and with good reason - but don't dwell on it; she's shown you what she is.

The thing is, normal, communicative relationships aren't full of drama, passion and amazing revelations. You ask, you get. You tell, they listen. They talk, you hear. It's just...normal. And because it's normal, you stop feeling the need to chase and analyse every single thing. It is how it is.

I was thinking about this thread on the M4 this morning. It's difficult because one 'side' is the way they are and the other 'side' is the polar opposite.

Regarding the friendship; both points of view are valid even if you subscribe more closely to one side more than the other. I've come to the conclusion that it's almost like a couple - one of whom wants a baby, the other one does not. The 'negative' action always trumps the positive. The person who doesn't want to change the dynamic, wins. Ergo, the person who doesn't want to discuss, wins. I was pretty wired on coffee when I thought of that so maybe it makes no sense, but I knew what I meant when I was thinking it.

For what it's worth, cailin, I think that your friend isn't really living up to her part of it. She could have e-mailed you, written to you, sent you some flowers saying "I love you, can we just NOT talk about it please and just be friends again?". She did none of those things.

I think this has an essence of 'unfinished business' for you and that's why it smarts. What would your friendship be like, do you think, if she would get in touch with you now? Would you be able to draw a line? Would you need to talk it through even in retrospect? Would your friendship ever be the same again?

I have to say, even as a non-talker, I'd be loathe to leave somebody in pain for want of my action to resolve. Even if I had to bite the bullet and say, "Look, I'm beyond hurt, I can't talk about this, I wish you well". I couldn't just do 'radio silence' and that is very unreasonable of cailin's friend, I think.

Hmm interesting thoughts lying. I have given up entirely on talking to my family (apart from my younger sister) - we are very low contact. I don't bother any more, I just give them the sanitised highlights of my life because that's all they want. My sister does talk - we're very close - and I have one other friend who talks, unfortunately we live far apart, but we talk regularly on the phone. I have other good friends who talk a bit, and that's fine by me, we're all different. I don't seem to go for complete non-talkers any more thankfully. I don't look for maximum openness at all times, just a willingness to communicate.

Ugh my FIL is like this. I find it so impossible to get closure on any issues without talking things through, and when people brush things under the carpet. It leaves me with so much anxiety and stress because I just want him to be a grown up, get things out in the open, maybe agree to disagree if necessary, and move the fuck on. But he is incapable of it. It's cruel, leaving someone in the dark as to why you have a problem with them (which is what FIL is doing to me). Agh.

But cailin, could you draw a line and resume your friendship with minimal if any discussion about what went wrong? Would it change your friendship from your side, ie. you would feel differently about her?

I wonder if there was something else bubbling away underneath with your friend because your not texting her when you'd just had the baby is completely unreasonable of her. Do you think there could have been something else?

Yes I do Lying but I don't know what it is. Previous to this she'd been feeling a bit 'left behind' as she doesn't have kids but she downplayed it and I wasn't really sure how much of a problem it was. If she'd said 'You having kids makes me feel awful and left out and I need a break' I'd have had nothing but sympathy for her.