To be fucked off at the fact that people won't talk about things?

[cailindana]

I'm a talker. I talk things through, sort things out, move on.

It seems that no one else in my life, bar perhaps my sister, is like that.

My parents won't talk about anything. Everything is passive-aggressive hints, sniffy one-liners. Anything that puts them in a bad light or makes them in any way uncomfortable is absolutely off limits and Must Not Ever Be Mentioned. My sister suffered a birth injury that caused her to be disabled. Did they ever once talk to her about it, tell her what had happened and what was wrong with her? Never, not once. They never ever spoke to their own daughter about her disability. When I tried to talk about being abused, it was all "you're making me feel guilty, get over it." It's never been mentioned since.

Two years ago, a long term friend and I fell out. I fucked up, I apologised, offered to talk it through, she ignored me. The friendship went very quiet. As usual, I made the first move towards reconciliation the other day, and offered to talk about what had happened. Oh no, lets not talk about it, let's just "move on." I will move on, but I am fully aware that her angry reaction was down to a heap of things she's angry about that she won't talk about. Those things are not resolved and I fully expect the friendship to go wrong again. If I don't understand what's bothering her, how can I help? How can the friendship ever improve if we don't communicate?

A different friend fucked up, I was pissed off, brought it up with him in order to get it all out in the open and sort it out. He responded briefly, then went silent. Is still silent, nearly a year later. Just won't talk to me. So, that's the end of that, years of friendship closed down.

My DH has kept silent about things for years, bottled things up. I got so fed up with it (and other things) I was on the edge of leaving. He finally opened up. Says he feels like someone has lifted the world from his shoulders. Side effect is, he cries a lot now - he can't get through even the opening credits of Call the Midwife without being in floods. But he says he feels like he's actually engaging with the world now, looking it in the eye. He talks about everything and I find his thoughts fascinating, it's like meeting a whole new wonderful person.

I see it again and again her on MN too - partners who simply won't talk to each other. It causes such misery.

I don't advocated endlessly wittering on about problems. But I do think that if something's bothering you, there is absolutely no point in storing it up and getting wound up about it - say something for god's sake!

AIBU?

people do go NC without explanation and then drift back into each others lives - sometimes very deliberately sometimes circumstantially. I have friends I see often and friends i don't. FB also allows friendships that would have ended naturally as a result of moving away from each other (to different parts of the country or simply by having or not having children) to limp along with intermittent contact. I may not respond to an email immediately from a friend. I may not be sure what to say or just simply be occupied with other priorities. Some of my friends respond at once to every form of contact and place great importance on close friendships. I am more reserved - that is who I am - I know that I will not change and neither will my more demonstrative friends nor would I want them to. Both personality types are part of a persons make up and unlikely to fundamentally change and both are valid and useful in different situations.

I find the people I know who are more demonstrative and 'higher maintenance' (for want of a better description) are also tended to be more judgmental. i work in a Citizens advice office one day a week and listen to people in all sorts of situations and with problems from tragic to ridiculous - not being particularly judgmental serves me very well here.

If you have high expectations of others behaviour (and your own) then when they let you down you are more likely to be upset by it and that is entirely understandable. I do not have such high ideals when it comes to friendship. Just the way I am - I don't really worry if someone does not reply to my message immediately - depending on my knowledge of the person. I am also 'blessed' with a rubbish memory for slights and annoyances so if you pissed me off a couple of years ago then I bump into you at a gig I am likely to greet you warmly without recollection that I need to tell you off/ slap you/ apologise... which clearly has some benefits (not necessarily to me).

but its not just about whether you want to share or 'open up' about difficult personal things. its about whether you are prepared to be honest or frank about your ordinary everyday responses to people - including your nearest and dearest. some people naturally tend not to try to conceal their everyday responses (if someone amuses them, the giggle openly - if someone irritates them they frown openly etc. etc.); others naturally (or at least automatically) put energy into concealing or modifying their everyday responses (so they might smile almost imperceptibly when amused - or pause or look away when irritated, but never frown openly). i am very frank and open, and my wife is very guarded and private - and coping with the everyday trouble this causes is the hardest thing in my life.

Bigmouth - surely expecting a response within two years isn't too much?
It was my friend that expected me to text her, after 12 hours of labour, and got annoyed when I didn't. I apologised and she just didn't reply.

Not too much to want Cail of course - but after such a long pause the person may feel too much water is under the bridge and being very conscious that she has let you down she is unable to form an adequate response so doesn't even attempt too. People don't always do the right thing, their motives are complex and messy and of course ignoring issues do not make them go away but picking at scabs make them fester and bleed - there are plenty of useful similes/ metaphors for both courses of action.

I have learned from bitter experience that people are not going change for me and are not always reasonable. I cannot control their actions and being pissed off about it is energy sapping. I may have a rant to my Husband/ friends/MN about my unreasonable Mother/ client/ teacher etc. then I move on. I have too many failings of my own to dwell on those of other people - so I try to concentrate on not fucking up my kids too much

If she'd said 'You having kids makes me feel awful and left out and I need a break' I'd have had nothing but sympathy for her.

I really do see what you're getting at Cailin and on the surface your friend's behaviour is difficult to understand, and it's clear you're deeply hurt by it.

But maybe the bigger thing that's wrong (it's clear it wasn't just that you didn't tell her individually) is so big for her eg not having a child, that she really doesn't want to talk about it, but also doesn't want to even say that she doesn't want to talk about it. Your sympathy might be a burden for her, if there's something very deep going on.

Maybe I'm just projecting, as others have said upthread, but I recognise a parallel situation in y own life which was so deeply painful I had to stop thinking /talking about it myself. And there were a couple of people close to me who didn't understand this -- well, why should they? But I had to protect myself. I didn't want their pity but I just didn't want to talk about it.

Still, I can see how painful it is for you. You're in a really difficult situation, and maybe the reason you sound so angry (to me) in your posts is that it's actually grief?

I find it strange that people here are implying I shouldn't feel upset about this. We've been friends since school, half our lives, and she kept the relationship going as much as me. This wasn't just some passing acquaintance - we went to uni together, went on holiday together, she travelled abroad for my wedding, she's visited me a number of times even though I live in a different country. I get that, given hoe close we were, she was annoyed I didn't text her when DD was born. I am surprised and upset someone could simply dump a friend of such long standing. I think that's normal, am I wrong?

not saying you shouldn't be pissed off - you feel whatever you feel - just saying that it doesn't seem to be helping you so maybe a new approach - i.e. trying to accept and move on - will help you. Strangers on the internet cannot do anything really but give their opinions (which are like arseholes as everyone has one!). So pick the responses that chime with you.

i think this is one of the things that makes social life so perplexing and painful so often. imagine a couple who lose a child. lets say - as is very likely - that both feel the loss to the same degree (i.e. very intensely). they are the only two people in the world who feel the loss this way. but it might well happen that whereas one deeply needs to express their sorrow and anger etc. the other deeply needs to hide it (from the world and from themselves). so everything they do just serves to torment the other - every time one tries to talk it makes it impossible for the other to hide from their own feelings; every time one refuses opportunities to talk it makes it impossible for the other to express their feelings.

i think the general drift of a lot of amateur psychological therapy since the sixties has been to recommend that we all learn to be more 'open' about our feelings. i can't help believing that that is broadly right. but my conviction that hiding everything personal (e.g. hiding when you disagree with someone, or when they upset you) is a bad thing just causes more trouble and pain in my marriage. that's clear.

Where, cailin? I haven't seen any posts that you're describing, saying that you shouldn't be upset. I'm reading a lot of support for you and how you feel.

I'm very much in agreement with Bigmouth and Chimney and think that it's very possible that your friend's sadness over her lack of children is too much for her to talk about and she doesn't want that expectation either. She is ultra-sensitive about the birth of your daughter and, if you've gauged that being childless might be the root cause of that, coupled with the very long gap in contact/water under the bridge feeling, then surely it's not beyond bounds that you'd tread extra carefully in that area because it's a very tender spot?

Perhaps your friend is upset, perhaps she has come to terms with this. You're not there yet so you still have grieving for your friendship to do.

I actually think that most of us on this thread haven't done anybody any favours by falling into the 'talker' and 'non-talker' category; it's all about communication and learning the best ways to deal with the people we communicate with. I had this very thing in a meeting yesterday to iron out problems; my listen carefully but only once/over-analysing/staccato/get on with it and stop talking approach didn't accord with his talk/ramble/part-listen/check/reflect and more talking MO. We have to learn to work together and accommodate and accept the other, which means stepping over our own boundaries, I think.

Lying, Bigmouth and Chimney

You really are wasting your breath. Cailin has not moved one inch from her original position and she repeats the same posts over and over again.

Cailin is blind and deaf to what is really being said (including the understanding and support from posters like myself who have not agreed with her but who have said they understand and are sorry for her pain and frustration - and offered a lot of interesting food for thought which his disregarded as she goes back to 'But how can they just not speak to me?') and seems to be incapable of seeing past her own feelings and needs. Despite her intent to be a good friend and a compassionate person - this ironically means she is likely quite the opposite in RL.

I also agree the 'talkers/non talkers' thing has been a red herring, very unhelpful and has meant Cailin can hide behind this false idea that non talkers freeze people out cruelly and randomly, rather than see these situations for what they are.

And rather than seeing that individuals and individual situations require different approaches, responses and strategies whether that falls into talking about things or not.

I think it's very obvious why both her friends have decided to let their relationship drift - even putting aside her stressful personality - because she has told us and we can all see it.

Sucks you said yourself in an earlier post that freezing people out was cruel and that you wouldn't do it. That's exactly what my friend did but for some reason you've spent the whole thread defending her by making things up about me and insulting me. Why would I listen to that?

If I made suppositions and deductions about you, told you you "harangue" your friends with no evidence that you actually do, and called you a "stressful personality" would you then say, "you know what Cailin, you're absolutely right."

Your advice has been to not push people into talking. Thing is, I don't push people into talking, I never have, and I never said I have.

I've said I'm annoyed at a friend cutting me off.

You've said that's cruel behaviour.

Others have said about lacking a backbone, about being toxic. I've never said any of that stuff because I don't think it. I've certainly never said anything about being brave or morally superior. I've said that in my experience not talking leads to bad situations. You've said to me that walking away from friendships is what some people do. I've said, fine, I'll try to avoid those people from now on (although obviously it's not always obvious) and as we clearly don't see eye to eye.

For some reason you want to paint me as a villain who has lost friends because I'm "stressful." That's fine, I'm not here to change your mind. But expecting me to accept your view on my personality when you don't even know me, and when a lot of what you're saying about me is made up, is very strange. Why would I do that?

sucks... I think your posts were very supportive also; punchy - yes, but they made me stop and think and at no point were dismissive of cailin.

cailin... I wonder perhaps if something has manifested itself recently that made you want to post about this? A birthday or event of some kind and it's triggered this for you? I honestly think that you're reading into others posts their descriptors of how they feel when people have expectations of their communication, and are taking this as a criticism of you.

I have to admit to feeling a little bit pricked reading through your thread at the self-identified 'talkers' who very much identify with themselves as 'getting things done', 'being to the point', 'being upfront and honest', 'straight-talkers', all said as very POSITIVE things. I read all of those as if I'm am NOT these things when actually I am just in a different way.

Generally, if you look at what the 'non-talkers' have said; the descriptors may be negative yes, but they're about FEELINGS, not an indictment of the other person's character.

None of us (presumably) know anybody here so can have no real understanding of anybody's personality BUT if you read this thread again, you'll see that those of us with behaviour types that we identify with, have experienced similar interactions with people we're close to.

I am genuinely sad for your upset, cailin. I see it in your posts, your need to get some kind of resolution (I detest 'closure') on what has happened with your friendship. I'm fairly certain though that it won't be fixed by what has already been tried.

Yes there has been a trigger Lying, it's a bit outing so I won't say what it is.

For the record I don't identify myself as a "straight-talker" as IME that's usually how rude, tactless people describe themselves. I have had people sit me down and "straight talk" at me and it's usually code for a character assassination.
I did once blow my top at someone and lay into them and I was very impressed that she held no grudge and just went on treating me with kindness and respect. I felt very humbled by her reaction and very ashamed at my own behaviour. I have since apologised to her and she's been incredibly magnanimous about the whole thing. I would like to be more like that.

I get what you're saying about feeling pricked at the descriptions here and I understand it. But it's worth noting that I framed my descriptions as my experience - I never said that "non-talkers" are this or that. I never described you or sucks in negative terms. Sucks and others, however, have described me in negative terms and have said my friends stopped talking to me because I have a "stressful personality" and I'm a certain type of person. I know that's not true, but it's still not very nice to read it.

cailin, Nobody could say what sort of personality anybody here has based on a few hundred words - even posts, so if somebody sees fit to attach personality traits to you then it's no real slight, is it? Not nice to read, I agree, but as Kipling said; "... treat those imposters both the same", in respect of whatever positive or negative things are said.

Regarding 'straight talking'; I am a straight talker (I think). For me, it's about saying what I need to say, in as few words as possible (although you wouldn't think it on MN!) - and shutting up when I'm done. I don't 'shoot from the hip' (another horrible and much coveted behaviour), I just plan in my head what I need to say, how I'll say it, and that's it really. Completely agree that rude and tactless people take delight in using 'straight talker' as a most glowing description of themselves.

'Stressful personality'... what does that mean exactly? Nobody can know what somebody is like without knowing them. I think what posters have possibly done is pick up some cues from your posts that have possibly resonated with people and experiences they know in real life, and applied them as some kind of 'label'. Other posters also said, 'Non-talkers are this and that'. People do seem to seek labels in their efforts to identify with others.

People are complex, they really are. Nobody needs telling of that, I just catch myself up short with that realisation sometimes. It's very, very difficult to change tack (not behaviour), to something else in an effort to find a way in. Sometimes it's worth the effort if only to be able to really be able to tell yourself that you did your damn best.

My DD - on the surface has excellent communication skills - she is bright articulate good vocabulary, but she is ASD - so she often syas the wrong thing, misses social cues, ignores her 'best' friends when they approach her. She is only 8 but it will be a constant battle for her to have good relationships with her peers. I see some of those traits in my mother. She was constantly saying the wrong thing and obsessing and misinterpreting. This means as a child I witness a whole lot of ill communication! So I don't speak as freely unless I am sure of myself I am cautious, I am some times too circumspect and I have mishandled things - but if nothing else. These experiences mean that I understand crapness in friends. If they are crap at talking or seemingly drop off the radar completely - I do not take it so personally as I see that being open to relationships leaves you open to being hurt - it is the risk that goes with the reward. I welcome that over being bitter about missed opportunities. I have some amazing people in my life and I welcome the time I have with them short or long and I can move on - maybe that means I have less intense relationships but I do not see it that way. Humans need each other and that means we adapt to survive.

Somehow this thread has made me come over all philosophical . soz!

Hope you find a way to sort your feelings out Cail.

Very eloquent bigmouth!

I'm not all torn up about this - it bothers me, yes, but it isn't keeping me awake or anything. I have a lot of good friends, I am very lucky, it's just as Lying was saying, there's been a trigger for revisiting this particular friendship and it's a something I've come up against in a pretty severe way in my own family so it is something that's been a problem for me.

It bothers me more, really, that my family's inability to talk about anything has led to such a dysfunctional set up, but I am sorely aware of the fact that I really can't do anything about it - I don't even try any more. My younger sister and I are very close and I am so thankful for that. It still hurts that I have pretty much no relationship with my parents but I can't manufacture it from thin air.

Life is unfair Cail - I often feel guilty - the parent I 'liked' more - my Dad (died when I was 18) was a lying, secretive and very charming and funny man - while my Mum who I love and who has had the crappiest life imaginable - is the one who I find irritating and difficult to talk to. I should appreciate her more. But you feel what you feel. Families are always fucked up in one way or another.

Dad talked a good game but 75% of it was blarney - mum is painfully honest but hard work - neither are really functional. Still I am sure I will find new and inventive ways to be dysfunctional for my children. But I do know how to talk to them by blending Dads humour with mums honesty. Cailidana I am sure you have learnt much from your parents 'how not to' examples

Definitely bigmouth! I'm under no illusion though that I'm perfect - I am aware I will fuck up in my own ways. I just hope I don't fuck up as badly as they did - they basically did the the caretaking of parenting but ignored us as people - I felt incredibly lonely and unsupported as a child.

They sound like damaged people as well - if nothing else recognising their mistakes and not replicating them will make you a 100x a better parent and happier person. My mum for all her faults was an amazing parent in comparison to her own so she deserves my love and support for that alone.

I know my own mum's dad wasn't great but I don't know much about it as she won't talk about it. I think her mum was pretty good but again I don't know much about it as she won't talk about it. I know she was abused as a child by her cousin - she told me that as an illustration of how normal it is to be abused. She also said it to show that you can just get over abuse by not talking about it - the irony fact that she saw fit to bring it up 50 years later to her own abused daughter was lost on her.

What I would really like to understand is what people like my mother believe will happen if they do talk about things - what is the fear about?

What I also cannot understand is the refusal to talk about things while at the same time getting bitter and twisted about it and making everyone suffer - I get the sense my mother actually enjoys doing this - it seems to give her a sense of control.

Can't comment about your parents, OP, but these friends: they aren't under any obligations to face up to anything with you or talk things through with you!

We massively misunderstand that friends are people who have a mutual liking, not just a history measured in time or childhood experiences.

If someone doesn't want to talk to you, it might just be that that's the way it is, and that's ok. We do not have to like everyone. It is hard to accept when it happens to you that someone breaks away — particularly if they do it with bad grace. But perhaps it is better for you that everything isn't out in the open. And perhaps it is self-protection on their part if they think you have criticism to share that they can't deal with (seems true!).

Just leave them be - be sad but move on!

I can totally understand not talking about abuse - you are probably wresting back control, avoiding pain of reliving things you would rather forget and fear of other peoples reactions. My mother told her family what her father did to her - they ignored her - he stopped but it was never dealt with. She was taught that her pain was an embarrassment. Horrible.

Talking about difficult things require faith that it will help - difficult for many people as their experience shows the opposite. So then it comes down to your personality and your environment.

I am curious about how people who would identify themselves as "non-talkers" (and I realise this is an imperfect 'category' - what I mean is people who tend to think about things on their own rather than discuss them with friends) think about campaigns like the one after Robin Williams' suicide telling people to "talk to someone." Do you think these campaigns are sensible and helpful or misplaced?

Talking to a stranger can be therapeutic - that is why online fora are so popular - talking to a friend spontaneously is much more difficult. So it depends on what is meant by 'talk to someone'. I have very personal conversations with people while on the phone lines at CAB. They share very intimate details - as it is a call that the person has planned and prepared for and they need to make to get some help - it is a deliberate act and I rarely have trouble getting folk to talk - getting them to focus on the other hand...

I think that's a misconception really, cailin. Those messages to prevent suicide will strike with talkers/non-talkers alike - and equally miss both 'groups' just the same. The campaigns need to be there, there should be there and they are there. People will heed them or they won't, you can never know what is going on it a person's head, hence the "He/she's the last person you'd ever think...".

My mother, when I lived at home, could never understand why, when I'd had a bad day at work, that I wouldn't sit and talk it through with her but say 'hello' and go up to my room to sit in silence. She pressed me and took it very personally and I HATED it. I took to getting home later and later, sitting in the cold sometimes just so that I wouldn't have to face that intrusive questioning. Was she a good mum? No - but not for that. When I needed my mum she wasn't 'available'. By the time I could rationalise and be of independent thought, I didn't need her. Still don't, hence the carefully scripted 'updates' that will satisfy her curiosity. Do I love her? Yes, unequivocally.

Heartily concur with Bigmouth that "Families are fucked up one way or the other"... each tweaks and corrects as the generations move on.