To be fucked off at the fact that people won't talk about things?

[cailindana]

I'm a talker. I talk things through, sort things out, move on.

It seems that no one else in my life, bar perhaps my sister, is like that.

My parents won't talk about anything. Everything is passive-aggressive hints, sniffy one-liners. Anything that puts them in a bad light or makes them in any way uncomfortable is absolutely off limits and Must Not Ever Be Mentioned. My sister suffered a birth injury that caused her to be disabled. Did they ever once talk to her about it, tell her what had happened and what was wrong with her? Never, not once. They never ever spoke to their own daughter about her disability. When I tried to talk about being abused, it was all "you're making me feel guilty, get over it." It's never been mentioned since.

Two years ago, a long term friend and I fell out. I fucked up, I apologised, offered to talk it through, she ignored me. The friendship went very quiet. As usual, I made the first move towards reconciliation the other day, and offered to talk about what had happened. Oh no, lets not talk about it, let's just "move on." I will move on, but I am fully aware that her angry reaction was down to a heap of things she's angry about that she won't talk about. Those things are not resolved and I fully expect the friendship to go wrong again. If I don't understand what's bothering her, how can I help? How can the friendship ever improve if we don't communicate?

A different friend fucked up, I was pissed off, brought it up with him in order to get it all out in the open and sort it out. He responded briefly, then went silent. Is still silent, nearly a year later. Just won't talk to me. So, that's the end of that, years of friendship closed down.

My DH has kept silent about things for years, bottled things up. I got so fed up with it (and other things) I was on the edge of leaving. He finally opened up. Says he feels like someone has lifted the world from his shoulders. Side effect is, he cries a lot now - he can't get through even the opening credits of Call the Midwife without being in floods. But he says he feels like he's actually engaging with the world now, looking it in the eye. He talks about everything and I find his thoughts fascinating, it's like meeting a whole new wonderful person.

I see it again and again her on MN too - partners who simply won't talk to each other. It causes such misery.

I don't advocated endlessly wittering on about problems. But I do think that if something's bothering you, there is absolutely no point in storing it up and getting wound up about it - say something for god's sake!

AIBU?

I think there are people who generally want to reconcile things and move on, and people who hold grudges.

Personally, I think there is a balance to be struck between the two. None of us is perfect - we may all screw up sometimes and need forgiveness/reconciliation, so holding grudges over minor or petty things is a dangerous and pretty entitled thing to do.

However, I do think that when someone shows no remorse or willingness to change, and repeatedly behaves in a very damaging way, you have to be able to walk away from a relationship with them.

That's so sad about your Uncle's wife cailin.

A sibling of mine had a horrible, lifechanging accident at a very early age, and no one knows what actually happened and it is literally never mentioned. It's weird, and toxic, and I'm glad I'm not part of that any more.

Yes wiggles, I don't write people off. Perhaps I'm too invested, but people do mean a lot to me. We've had some great times and I've always loved and admired her - this was just a bolt out of the blue. She always had a tendency to clam up about things at first and then talk about it later, which was fine, I never pressured her to talk, but she'd never done something like this.

I think one of the things that hurts most is the sense that after all that time she didn't trust me enough to be honest about what was bothering her.

"However, I do think that when someone shows no remorse or willingness to change, and repeatedly behaves in a very damaging way, you have to be able to walk away from a relationship with them."

I totally agree with this holly. I had to do it with my older sister. I tried to work things out with her but just couldn't so I had to cut contact, for my own sanity.

But with my friend, we'd never had a fight, she'd kept the friendship going as much as I did, I had no inkling there was any issue with our friendship. I don't think I'm abusive or damaging.

Similar situation to my younger sister Eliza - my parents have literally never once mentioned her disability. She had to look up what was wrong with her all on her own when she was 7 - how fucking sad is that.

I don't give two shiny shites about "writing people off" if they treat me like shit and to answer an earlier question more clearly I wouldn't have any problem with my kids doing the same.

If she's not speaking to you over that then that is very petty and I can understand why it's upsetting you. If I'm upset about something, I either give myself a good shake and get over it or consider if there is anything to be served by talking it over. I said before I'm not a talker but there have been things I've addressed where it's been too hard to get over but I've wanted to save the relationship and that's worked very well. I'm quite forgiving as well generally so if someone apologised I'd almost always be inclined to accept that and move on.

I assumed you were talking about a much worse situation where your friend was reasonably very upset but that was me projecting. The only time I've cut anyone off was when the hurt was so deep that there was nowhere to go with it. And they knew about it anyway.

If I was in your shoes I'm not sure I could be bothered with someone so petty but it hurts to let go of friendships - I take them seriously too - so I can understand why it must be very difficult for you.

That's fair enough wiggles, but I don't think I treated her like shit - we had a fun, enjoyable friendship.

No, again with the not reading, I think she treated you like shit and I think that you are the only one worrying about the friendship, perhaps if you were more comfortable with giving up on people who hurt you then this wouldn't have become such a big thing for you.

I think it's pretty normal and understandable to care about 15 years of good friendship wiggles, it's not something I really want to change in myself.

I have had disagreements in the past and talking through them would be useless. Sometimes you just don't agree and if you try to discuss it you go in circles. Best thing is to move on.

Having said that, if you don't talk through something that doesn't give you the excuse to play childish emotional games. Either you agree to disagree and move on, or you say that the agreement is too much and it has spoilt the friendship. Cold shoulder treatment is not acceptable adult behaviour, unless you don't wish to live and socialise with other people.

People do not deserve to be emotionally blackmailed. Whatever happened to treat others with respect if you expect to be treated with respect? People who want to play emotional games with others are bottom line self absorbed and think only about how the situation affects them.

I've just read through the thread.

I do understand cailin why you feel as you do. It must be very hurtful just to be dropped after a long, and from your perspective, strong friendship. It wouldn't be something that I could see myself doing over something relatively minor but some people are easily affronted and do hold grudges for what, in my estimation, are pretty feeble reasons.

Having said that, I'm not much of a talker. My mother is one who "likes to talk things through" but in her case it is, as pp have suggested, usually just a method of beating people into submission. She likes utter capitulation - you must always see things from her point of view. It would never be enough to apologise and move on. She would insist that she was right and the other person was completely wrong.
I'm not suggesting that you are like that, cailin - but my years of enduring that sort of talking through make me very reluctant to engage in it these days.

Incidentally, wiggles, your daughters sound really mature and balanced. I admire you for having instilled such independence in them

I've been subjected to character a character assassination in the past - I certainly don't do it to other people. That's far worse than ignoring IMO.

Calindana I don't think your friend is being fair.
Perhaps say I don't know what I've done but I'm going to leave it up to you. Either talk to me about it and maybe I can fix/change or explain it or you can just let our friendship go. This will hurt me deeply but I will respect you and leave you alone if that's what you want. That way you will at least know where you stand.

I'm not a natural talker. People think I am because I'm so chatty in RL, but I find it very hard to talk about the big stuff. I therefore have lots of superficial friendships but find the real deal much harder work. No best friends since I was at uni and fell out with last one (ok she fell out with me, but I don't blame her).

In me I think it's linked to low self esteem. I was bullied when young and it left me with a terrible fear of admitting weakness. Talking about feelings (and potentially being in the wrong) made me clam up with fear. It must have made it very hard for people close to me, that I would always deflect or walk away and not talk about it.

DH has helped me greatly with this, but I still find it hard with others. However my self-esteem is on the up, I know it comes from inside me now and I'm not the horrible person that I once feared I was, just human and fallible. But essentially, good.

Is any of that helpful, cailin?

Yes it is smegs, immensely so, thank you for being so honest. I understand fear of rejection, I think we all have it. I don't suppose there's any real way to reassure a person who feels that fear very strongly that you won't reject them, is there?

Is it a case of 'I'll reject you before you can reject me'?

I don't think it's about that for me. I had a feeling inside me for years, that if I was bullied I somehow deserved it, that they saw something horrible in me.

I don't reject people. I just don't want them to see the bad person, the wrongness, inside me, so I keep them at a distance. I don't avoid talking about it now, I never did. I just find it hard.

However I've never done the sort of thing your friend did to you. I just am occasionally spontaneously thoughtless, and feel tremendous guilt about it for ages. I don't like to talk about it, but I do apologise because it is the right thing to do. I suspect that your friend new how awful she'd been and didn't want to face up to the enormity of her actions, berating a new mother for not thinking instantly of her.

Oh, blasted phone .

But I can't know what your friend feels, it's just a guess based on my own issues. The problem is that the only way you'll know what she feels and why she reacted like that is if she tells you, except that she won't talk about it and her reaction to gentle enquiries is to shut down and walk away from your friendship, for 2 years.

A catch-22, if you like.

Cailin, the fear of rejection by other people is sometimes lesser than the fear of what's inside you, iykwim. So it's easier to pretend it's ok, it never happened, by not seeing or communicating with the person that you associate the bad event with. I assume that's what happened with your Sis, which is an awful thing to happen to a child.

Um. I'm getting a bit weird and navel-gazing here, and feeling awfully uncomfortable about it. Sorry.

Cailin - re your friend.

You have swerved the real issue here and decided that it's because your friend is a 'non talker' that she's walked out of your life without explanation - nothing to do with you, right?

Because that suits you to take that position doesn't it?

You did something shitty, you apologised but it's changed the way she felt about your friendship.

But much easier to conclude she's simple cruel or morally feeble or cowardly by not wanting to talk it all out, rather than the fact you damaged the relationship (then no doubt harangued her) and she wants out.

You are absolutely unwilling to hear that you have to accept that your friend doesn't want to discuss this further with you.

She doesn't want to try and salvage and dissect and discuss your relationship anymore. As much as you want to, she doesn't want to.

I do and did feel for you and what you have been through as I have said throughout this thread. I can hear how hard it is for you to let go. But Jeez talk about a dog with a bone. Let your friend go!

I have never harangued her.

I don't think she's cruel or morally feeble or cowardly, I never used those words (though others have).

If I did think so little of her I wouldn't bother with her.

I don't think forgetting to text someone hours after giving birth is "shitty" - I can see she felt forgotten and I understand that but I don't think it's a massive crime.

I know for a fact she walked out of life without explanation, because that's what she actually did. I didn't say it's because she's a non-talker, I said because she's a non-talker I don't know why exactly she walked out of my life.

The thing is in this thread you've come across as "I am a talker and that is the right way for all".

It may be right for you, but it wouldn't be right for me.
I don't work through something by talking it through with others generally. I work through much more effectively by me thinking it through, and if I still can't make sense and compromise from my side, then I may talk it through with dh or a friend. But that's my choice, not their choice.

I don't tend to talk about things that have hurt me deeply, because actually talking it through brings all the emotion back up. Hearing the other person justify it would only bring back feelings of anger. If they apologised to me, then fine I would accept that, but I'd rather they showed they had moved on by what they did than apologise.
I would rather work it through with myself, and move on.

If I try to talk about things that matter a lot, I find it hard; I can't get the words I want to say and know i can, in the heat of the moment, say something deeply tactless or hurtful because I am stuggling with the emotion. Or I'll end up apologising when I don't necessarily mean it or want to simply to finish the conversation.

I also find that sometimes when people say they want to talk through a disagreement, that isn't really what they mean. What they actually mean is that they want to justify their actions.

Some people talk easily to others. Some people don't. Neither's right, neither's wrong. And forcing the non-talkers to talk doesn't make everything fine.

cailindana I do see where you're coming from with this. I'm a talker -- sometimes

But on this thread, your posts make me feel claustrophobic, as if you're haranguing me, and refusing me any privacy. I also feel that you think you're right, and better than others because you talk things through.

You say that you don't think this, but it's what I feel from reading your posts.

You also feel very angry to me -- raging in fact. As I said upthread, your posts make me feel a bit claustrophobic and anxious. This might not be what you intend, but I'm just feeding back to you how reading them feels to someone else.

I'm just a random stranger on the internet. Imagine how your friends & family people who know you, and see you might feel dealing with your insistence on talking?

I'm curious at to why you're so keen to disregard the details I've given and make other details up sucks, such as the detail that I was haranguing her?

Where did I say I insist on talking Chimney? In order to have a relationship.with someone you have to engage with them in some way, surely? It's not me 'insisting' - I just can't have a friendship with someone who literally won't talk to me!