To be heartily hacked off with this situation (DS2 and DH a bit)

[sausageandorangepickle]

DS2 (13) regularly does low level but annoying 'naughty' things like leaving lights/tv/heater on in his room when he comes down stairs, taking treat food that was meant for the whole family or specifically for DS3 (4), not getting up on time, not turning lights/tv off when asked at night. Just writing this down makes it look so superficial, but it is all the time, and we need to nag and nag and nag to get him to do anything. We have explained why these things are a problem -electricity bill, disturbing others, being greedy, lazy etc and he is a really bright boy so he knows the effect his behaviour is having on others around him.

DH (and yes, he is DS2's dad) and I have totally different views on how to deal with it. DH thinks he needs to be punished, and has taken his x-box away, months ago now, to encourage DS2 to do more physical activity, but DS2 has just moved to watching You Tube videos of other people playing x-box. DH has taken the heater out of DS2's bedroom because he always seemed to leave it on. He makes massive threats and has huge rants at DS2, but the behaviour never seems to change.

I on the other hand, keep trying to make peace with DS2, trying to work out why he is behaving this way, helping him out, I guess I am too soft, as I want to believe every reason he gives for his behaviour, but whatever I do, doesn't change the way he is either.

I don't think it is all about teenage hormones as it has been this way for 4/5 years now. I think it is probably more about his place in the family, there is a small gap between him and DS1, and then 9 years between him and DS3.

I don't know what to do. DH is so pissed off he says things like 'he's just a bad one' and that he can't be bothered with him any more, he doesn't want to talk to him or spend time with him (to me, about DS2, not directly to him).

So, AIBU to be pissed off and confused? and has the collective might of mumsnet got any advice for me? Sorry about the essay!

He has taken the heating our of your sons bedroom? In this weather? Are you serious?

It would really bother me if my DH said things like "he's just a bad one" I assume he says these things within DS earshot? If he doesn't want to spend time with his family he had better fuck off hadn't he?

I imagine your sons behaviour will improve fairly rapidly.

sorry out not our

Okay, your son's behaviour sounds like typical teenage behaviour, to be honest. Annoying, yes. Worth all this angst and drama? No, not really.

And if your "D"H has really left your son without heating in February, that is cruel and actually quite disgusting behaviour, as is his attitude of your DS being the "bad one".

Even if he doesn't say these things in front of your DS, your poor DS is bound to feel it. That's a really disturbing way for your DH to feel about a child. It's not as if he's setting fire to barns or anything - it sounds like forgetfulness/lack of concentration more than anything.

I think you and your DH are both wrong. DH for labelling him "a bad one" (ffs) and you for continually looking for reasonable excuses for his behaviour.

It sounds, unless you're about to do some massive drip feed re special needs, as if he's acting perfectly normally. He's testing you and DH and looking for boundaries. Give him some meaningful boundaries, and some reasonable consequences for transgressing those boundaries.

Poor boy. He'll notice your husband's attitude. It's bullying unpleasant behaviour by your DH, and will affect your son's self esteem if he feels he's being seen as the "bad one". People often act up to the labels that others give them.

13 year old boys can be annoying. Every one of them. And no bugger in this house puts the lights out. Your problem is your partner, not your son.

Firstly, my DS does some, if not all of the things you struggle with. I suspect many do. You are not alone.

Part of the problem is likely to be your lack of a United front. You both want the same things, but are going about it differently.

What about negotiating the rules? Tell DS that there are going to be a few rules he must abide by (try and make as few as possible) and, for each one, he will get one warning / reminder and then there will be a clear consequence.

I think the consequence needs to be immediate, and linked. For example, we have cracked the getting up (mostly) by giving DS a fixed time to be down in the morning. We wake him once, and remind him once. Then he is left. If he is not downstairs by 8, then he is in bed, no gadgets, by 8. Worked a treat. After all, if you can't get up, you can't be tired.

We also got an electricity gadget thing that measures usage. We monitored it for a week and then offered money into a "treat" box if it could be saved from the bill.

Why do you have treats specially for one child? We have 2 children and buy 2 (or 4) and each gets their share. He is likely to be feeling resentful. He is trying to be his own man but is being nagged and so is rebelling. It is hard to get a change, but a list of things to be done / consequences and both parents doing the same thing will help.

*you MUST be tired, not you can't be tired.

Get Sober I think has it nearest. We are both reacting wrongly, and probably as a reaction to each other too, DH is massively over reacting, and I am over compensating for that, and being too soft in response.

Reasonable boundaries are what we need, but it kind of feels like we have massively gone past that - can we go back to missing out on treats/screen time limits etc when we have previously (by that I suppose DH has and I have let him) done these massive consequences like removing the heater etc?

I think it is teenager behaviour.
DH has taken the heater out of DS2's bedroom because he always seemed to leave it on. - why not putting timer on it?

I think most parents would say their kids did that to some extend. Mine did and I decided not to make big thing out of it and it is getting a bit better.

I think pick you battles.

It really does seem like it can't be a nice place for your ds2 to be right now. All this tension, nagging and suggestions that he's 'the bad one'

Ds1 wouldn't remember to turn a light off if his life depended on it, he's 12 and lights on or off are just not on his radar. He's a wonderful, funny, clever and thoughtful boy though so I don't give a fuck, frankly!

Lay off your son, all this punishment and unkindness toward him will not help anyone.

My DH is a bit like this with DS1 but not quite as extreme... He picks on little things DS does and nags away and then DS erupts and DH is vindicated... Mainly his fast eating, elbows on the table, not holding cutlery properly (.in fact having written this table manners appear to be his 'thing')
Worryingly it is mainly DS1 (11 and our eldest) that he is very picky about... I am more of a 'don't sweat the small stuff' person ..DS is mostly lovely (excepting farting, swearing etcetera!) and so I focus on that.
As DH is often absent I guess DS gets very mixed messages. I am coming to the conclusion that DH and I need to sit down and thrash out our non negotiables and then talk to all DC and present a United front.
I think we risk alienating him when he is older if we can't let some stuff slide and pick our battles...

I think your DH is very wrong to remove a heater from your DSs room, unless this is supplementary to a radiator. If it's the only form of heating that's a pretty cruel punishment.

I also don't like the idea of treats only being for one child, in my house either everyone has treats, or no one. I'd never favour one child over another.

Sounds a bit like your son is the whipping boy when he's being nothing other than a typical teen. Agree with previous posters less punishment is appropriate here, not more.

roseformeplease that all sounds really sensible, and actually the getting up thing is mostly cracked on school days with a similar system - a deadline, being woken up and reminded 2x, then if he misses the deadline, a small fine - this was agreed by both the teenagers, and they both abide by it, and accept if it their pocket money is a bit light. Just in holidays it is pushed and pushed till the day is wasted.

treats for DS3, because DH buys them for him, as they are at home together during the day, DS1 and 2 get other stuff, crisps and snacks in the evening after DS3 is in bed.

In all honesty, the amount that a light uses is absolutely not worth all of this. The heater more so, but maybe if you had picked your battles your DS would realise the importance of turning the heater off. As it stands, its just one more thing in a long list of things hes being nagged over.

As for your DH labeling him a bad one. That is so ridiculously unnecessary, and incredibly damaging.

Regarding the treat food for the 4 year old, is there similar treat food specifically for your other sons?

Xposts.

The favoritism of the youngest, while understandable, needs to stop. I don't mean with material things like the treats, they are probably a physical symptom of a bigger issue.

When was the last time your DH spent the day with the 13yo?

I agree that the things you describe seem to be normal teenage behaviour. If I had a £1 for every time I tell DS to turn the lights off in various rooms he has passed through, bring his crockery downstairs and put it in the dishwasher, put his dirty washing in the basket, get out of the shower (when he has been in there for 20 minutes), not to open random packets of food in the fridge or leave empty packets of food in the cupboard etc etc, I would be a very rich woman. I just say the appropriate reminder on repeat in the hope that it will one day sink in. Very occasionally he does some of those things without being told.............. he is 18. It is annoying but it just seems to be what teenagers do. One day they will have their own homes/bills and you can go around there and turn the heating up, leave all the lights on and eat the food from their cupboards to extract your revenge .

I think removing the x box for such demeanours is a bit excessive but YY to fitting a timer to the heater. If I could work out a way to do this to the shower in DSs bathroom, I would. And I keep a secret stash of treats so that there are always some for others even when DS has scoffed the ones in the cupboard and left an empty pack.

Ds1(14) also does all the above its teenage absentmindedness rather than he's being naughty or wants to annoy you. I just remind him now and again to switch things off. He remembers maybe 50% of the time and that's good enough for me. All my dcs know which foods they can take without asking: bread, butter, peanut butter, jam, digestive biscuits, fruit, yogurts, instant soups. If they want something else they know to check first as I may need it for a meal etc.

I think you need to sit down with your DH and really talk.. and make a plan that you can both stick by that isn't OTT.

He's 13.. he's not going to improve for a long time yet and if he is treated so OTT by your DH he is likely to get a lot worse... DH is asking for a massive rebellion a few years down the line! If he's this huffy about light switches and heaters, what's he going to be like when DS at some stage comes in drunk before he's 18 (as most do at least once) or loses the last set of house keys...

You son is a typical teen boy.. thoughtless not terrible, and a bit of common sense is needed. If YOU forgot to turn off the heater three days in a row would your DH not allow you any heating? I imagine not..that would be considered abusive by most people...

I had 4 teens all at once (youngest is now 17) They were all light leaving, food inhaling , annoying thoughtless creatures.. it's part of being who they are. One of them was also a stealing, lying, wall smashing asshole, frankly. We were fairly relaxed about the light switches, because in the grand scheme... very minor. Keeping DS1 out of trouble until he finally grew up a bit took every bit of teamwork DH and me could muster..and we did have rather different approaches until we realised that DS1 would simply wait for good cop parent to rescue him from bad cop parent. Once we started working as a team.. calmly.. it worked a lot better (and DS1 is 21 now and an absolutely lovely, decent man!)

Talk to eachother...

I found my ds more than ready for some responsibility amd appreciation by 13. Especially as that was around when he passed me in size so I could ask him to do heavy stuff like hoovering stairs. And then say heartfelt thankyou. These years are time to start the ( slow) shift from parent/ child to something a bit different. Perhaps he needs to be treated as a bit older, asked 'how can we help you to remember' (thus not patronising him to suggest he doesn't know electricity costs money, or saying that he is stupid to forget).

Can you get dh to see maybe he needs to feel good about himself, in order to feel he can get a grip? Actually dh is guilty of rather lazy parenting, maybe that's where ds gets it from! (possibly don't put it quite like that though

sliceofsoup, DH spends very little one to one time with DS2, he and DS1 have some interests in common, so spend time together, and he works PT and does most of the daytime childcare with DS3 while I am at work full time.
At the moment I'm not sure they could last any time together, they are stuck in this rut of resentment for each other.
People are right that DS2's behaviour is not excessive, but it is wearing to be on his case all the time.
I'm also realising as I am typing responses, that I am probably on his case to avoid DH being involved, rather than because I am particularly bothered about the light being on or the 20 minute shower (yes we have those too, after nagging all day to get him in it!!). I'm forever saying things like 'Dad won't like it...' which is crap isn't it? I will be reinforcing the feelings that his dad doesn't like him, and at the same time being a bloody doormat to both of them. Bollocks.

OP, the worrying behaviour here is your husband's. It sounds like he's pretty much rejecting your son on the basis of very minor and common transgressions. (In my experience it can take a long time for children to become domesticated - it's not automatic and sometimes it doesn't happen until they've left home!) It is troubling that your husband has got this so out of perspective. It shouldn't affect how he treats your son on a daily basis, or his love for him (which it certainly sounds like it has).

You are wrong to insist on teenage boys getting up on weekends/holidays. Unless there is something they need to do, let them sleep.

Lights and heater out is your own anxieties getting the better of you and DH. I like the idea of a meter but only so that you and he can see how little DS's use of electricity is actually contributing to the bill. In any case, most families use so many power hungry gadgets I really think you and DH need to just suck this one up. Get a heater that is energy efficient, and new fangled lightbulbs, and get a grip.

Why are there treats for the youngest boy?
Why does DS1 have some interests in common with DH? Did these interests arise naturally or is DS1 in some way aware that he needs to mirror his father in order to get attention, and this is something DS2 isn't willing to do?
What effort is made to find something that DS2 is interested in, by way of extracurricular activities or hobbies and to encourage him in those interests?

Everything that has been tried so far involves negating DS's interests, and denying even his presence and his needs.

My concern is that your DS2 sounds as if he is to some extent playing the role of a scapegoat or black sheep in your family. Your DH in particular seems very locked into head on confrontation with him, and the concomitant idea that he will 'win' or that he is willing to lose DS2. He may not have thought it through to see that that is where this is headed, but that is where this will end.

Is DH a man who is sometimes 'difficult'?

If my DH had taken any heaters out of my DC's rooms he'd be bloody well sleeping in the barn! Your DS is a typical teenager. FFS give him a break.

I feel so sorry for your son.

You should be protecting from all this fairly abusive behaviour from your DH, not being complicit in it.

Does he still have no heating?

Aren't you ashamed?