To be heartily hacked off with this situation (DS2 and DH a bit)

[sausageandorangepickle]

DS2 (13) regularly does low level but annoying 'naughty' things like leaving lights/tv/heater on in his room when he comes down stairs, taking treat food that was meant for the whole family or specifically for DS3 (4), not getting up on time, not turning lights/tv off when asked at night. Just writing this down makes it look so superficial, but it is all the time, and we need to nag and nag and nag to get him to do anything. We have explained why these things are a problem -electricity bill, disturbing others, being greedy, lazy etc and he is a really bright boy so he knows the effect his behaviour is having on others around him.

DH (and yes, he is DS2's dad) and I have totally different views on how to deal with it. DH thinks he needs to be punished, and has taken his x-box away, months ago now, to encourage DS2 to do more physical activity, but DS2 has just moved to watching You Tube videos of other people playing x-box. DH has taken the heater out of DS2's bedroom because he always seemed to leave it on. He makes massive threats and has huge rants at DS2, but the behaviour never seems to change.

I on the other hand, keep trying to make peace with DS2, trying to work out why he is behaving this way, helping him out, I guess I am too soft, as I want to believe every reason he gives for his behaviour, but whatever I do, doesn't change the way he is either.

I don't think it is all about teenage hormones as it has been this way for 4/5 years now. I think it is probably more about his place in the family, there is a small gap between him and DS1, and then 9 years between him and DS3.

I don't know what to do. DH is so pissed off he says things like 'he's just a bad one' and that he can't be bothered with him any more, he doesn't want to talk to him or spend time with him (to me, about DS2, not directly to him).

So, AIBU to be pissed off and confused? and has the collective might of mumsnet got any advice for me? Sorry about the essay!

A few things to clear up - the heater. His room is ok without it, if a little on the cool side, the heater is supposed to be an extra, a top up. DS1 has one as well and very rarely puts it on at all, but DS2 will go upstairs to fetch something, put it on and then come back down for hours, so is heating an empty room. He has not been left in an icebox.

If his bedroom was fine without a heater he wouldn't need one in the first place would he? You're backtracking now because the majority of posters have called you out on the abusive behaviour of your husband towards your son including removing a source of heating in his 'on the cool side' bedroom.

DH is having treatment, both counselling and medication for his stress/depression. He can go for long periods of accepting DS2's behaviour, but then it all gets too much for him and he blows. He doesn't seem to be able to start with a clean slate, and so each little careless thing mounts up cumulatively, with him saying things like 'He (DS2) always..../he never....'

Why does your husband mercilessly pick on your middle son yet has perfectly healthy relationships with your other two? You are using your husbands supposed 'illness' as a get out clause of how you are both shit parents and probably make your middle son feel like utter shit.

I'm not necessarily trying to defend my DH, just explain more clearly, he had a crap family life as a child, so I suspect mega punishments were dished out, and his emotional needs were ignored.

So your husband had a crap family life and he is making his own son feel the same way he did? The fact that you are justifying his behaviour makes you worse than your husband.

I do love all my DS's, DS2 takes up more of my brain space, I worry about him a lot, he seems so unhappy. DS3 probably takes more time as he is 4 so needs more attention. DS1 is 15, fairly self sufficient, providing he has enough food, and has a wider variety of interests and friends.

Of course he is unhappy, are you deliberately being obtuse? Your son is unhappy because of the horrendous family life he has to endure. This lands firmly at your feet and your husbands.

I get that you are going to say DS2 is unhappy because of DH, but I think it is more of a cycle than that, and they are making each other unhappy. Yes I know DH is the adult and is the one who is in a position to make changes.

It's not a 13 years old childs responsibility to make a grown adult happy. Stop laying blame at your sons door. Your husband is a disgrace and I don't know how on earth you can justify his appalling behaviour.

To the posters who say I am a crap mum, well if I was I wouldn't be so worried about this, would I? I know things are far from perfect, and this was a step to making it better. You are entitled to your opinion, but that seems very harsh.

You're a crap mum because you have let this abuse go on for 4 years.

My opinion is that of a mum. I spoke to my husband about this last night something that I would never normally do as I don't pay any particular interest in most threads, however I was actually upset for your son and how he must feel. My husband was flabbergasted at how a father could treat his own son with such contempt.

I don't think either of you are fit to be parents. I may sound over dramatic but I love my children so much and it would kill me if my son felt the way your son feels.

what your ds is doing is barely even naughty. It sounds entirely typical and at worst its forgetful and a bit inconsiderate - hes a child.

Your husband is scapegoating your ds for his anxiety and anger. This is very damaging. You are enabling it

Your husbands negativity towards your son will cause resentment and will not encourage him to want to please his Dad,
.
Even if he complies he will do so with reluctance and resentment and when he gets a little older he may seek revenge.

I think you have your title the wrong way round -it should be-DH and a little bit DS".
It is true that they have got into a vicious circle but in these situations it usually requires change in the adult to break into this.

I understand that you are doing your best but I'm sorry to tell you that a similar situation arose in my own family when my children were teenagers and now they are adults much resentment is directed at me for not supporting them more forcefully.
I did exactly the same as you and tried to compensate so my limits became too weak.

I understand that your husband is depressed and your sons behaviour is irritating but your son is not dissimilar to many teenagers.

I would begin by trying to talk to your husband-show understanding of his feelings but express your oncerns over his relationship with your son.
I would also abandon any attempt to show a "united front" with your dh.

Maintain your own limits with your son but in a polite way and praise his efforts.

If your DH can't or won't spend time listening to your son and engaging in positive activities with him you will need to do this yourself-but remind him that he is the adult and explain how his failure to engage with your son will affect their relationship.
Your DH's present attitude will have a negative effect on your sons mood and behaviour.
The first step in disciplining a teenager is building a relationship of respect where the teenager wants your approval.

agree with superwifeandmum there

About the sleeping - I can still remember the utter bone crunching weariness and inability to get out of bed in the morning as a teenager. And my mother constantly nagging me about wasting the day when there was nothing planned. He's not just being lazy, teenagers' sleep patterns genuinely change and they need a lot of sleep for all that growing and brain changing

This. Still gives me the rage 30 years later remembering my bloody mother (who LIKES to get up at 5) mithering on about sleeping and days wasted. Teenagers brains and body clocks are vastlyd different to that of an adult. We'll know. Well documented. Please leave the poor sod to sleep. He might be able to remember stuff like turning heaters off if he has enough sleep at times appropriate to his body clock.

You're not a crap mum. Sometimes people see things in black and white and post accordingly, but life is much more complicated than that.

I think your DH needs to speak to his counsellor specifically about how he interacts with his son, in particular how he bottles up feelings of annoyance until he overreacts. You say you realises he overreacts, and that is the heart of the issue. He needs to stop trying to control things that are uncontrollable. He needs to learn to let go.

I am of the strong opinion that much modern depression is actually anxiety based, due to how people were raised and life experiences, that make them feel on edge a lot of the time (if they were raised walking on eggshells their brain learns to be on high alert, watching out for all the dangers that might occur, even after they have left the parental home a long time ago and the situation is no longer physically or emotionally dangerous).

As a result of your husband's high alert state, he is probably trying to control his environment and people around him to try and reduce his anxiety. Ofcourse, it is an impossible task for him, so the anxiety cycle continues. He cannot hope to ever totally control everything to the level where he feels safe. It is a normal brain response and he is probably unaware that he is doing this. It is also a response that he no longer needs, as he is no longer in physical or emotional danger, and his counsellor should help him learn how to switch it off and come back down to low alert levels. I truly believe this is the issue that needs to be resolved in your house. Lots of adults who suffered mild-full on abuse as youngsters suffer like this. They may have had a depressed parent themselves who made them feel like walking on eggshells. It is a cycle that needs to be stopped, but he can only do this with his counsellor's help. He needs to talk about his childhood, understand that it put him into a high alert anxious state, then learn there is no-one to blame, come back down to low level anxiety and he will hopefully become much calmer and not want to control everyone (including himself, which as he knows is an impossible task). He may not even realise that he is in this anxious state because it is the way he has felt for the majority of his life. He also needs to be reminded it is a normal response to a stressful childhood and has a simple-ish solution.

That is the key to your husband's recovery and also to his relationship with a child that is also learning how to live on higher alert and may be starting to develop his own feelings of anxiety at the situation. Once your husband addresses this issue, his relationship with your son will change. He won't get stressed about all the teenage mistakes your son makes that aren't actually that important and will relax about how your son needs to learn for himself the lessons that we all learnt as teenagers.

So, chat with DH and encourage the anxiety-talk with his counsellor x

Would you be afraid to tell your husband in front of your son that he is being ridiculous about something and to leave the lad alone.
If you would be afraid to do this your husband is controlling you all and ruling by fear.
I hope that you aren't afraid of him but if you are ask yourself if this is okay.

I will cough to not having read the whole thread, but the 'he's just a bad one' line makes me very uncomfortable. If your DS2 was an inveterate bully or drug addict or similar I could understand it, though it would still be harsh and not that helpful. But to say that about leaving heaters on and not getting up on time? Seriously? Not to say you shouldn't try and get him to improve, but that level of reaction is very OTT .

Get a heated throw for his bedroom, it costs pennies to run. Something like this www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00QV9W62Y/ref=s9_simh_gw_p201_d0_i2?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_s=desktop-2&pf_rd_r=17Z4VN3K3FN1GSRYX322&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=577048787&pf_rd_i=desktop

And going back to the X box issue - hasn't exactly worked, that tactic, has it? What about using positive reinforcement and allowing him to earn X box time by doing some exercise, turning lights off, whatever? It feels like the punishment is more important than finding a practical solution that actually improves things.

Very astute popalot, I hold the same opinion on anxiety manifesting as depression.

SuperWifeANDMum
I don't think either of you are fit to be parents. I may sound over dramatic but I love my children so much and it would kill me if my son felt the way your son feels.

Your opinion is extremely harsh and it's also unwarranted. The OP is not happy with the situation and has asked for advice. Like the rest of us, she is learning as she goes.

We all have flaws in our parenting. In all but the most extreme cases it's not for lack of loving our children desperately. I agree, it's harsh and quite unwarranted.

OP, you absolutely will need to tackle your DH on this.

I expect the crux of it is that something in your son reminds your DH of himself. He is acting out the nasty behaviours perpetuated against him, perhaps without being aware, because that is the template he was given when he was a child. I expect the older son is less like your DH so doesn't bring up the same baggage from your DH's childhood. Just a guess, of course.

Depression/anxiety is not a get-out-of-jail-free card. We still ought to be self-aware and work our hardest to avoid damaging behaviours, however ingrained in us they may be.

I agree with popalot. it's so easy to give a view over internet when it's not your life or if you haven't lived with depression. My exh has depression and although we didn't have the issues with dc as you are it's very waring living with it and you just want to keep peace best you can. I didn't really understand my exh depression and he didn't Deal With it well either.

our split was very messy as I left him for someone else which of course made his behaviour worse and yes for a while it did impact on our dc as well as dealing with the whole situation. It was and unfortunately has affected ds2 who at 12 has been diagnosed with depression too. Living with a depressed child is also very difficult and I walk on egg shells around him too. I know I am responsible for his depression and am trying my best to get him the help he needs.

Ds2 is closer to me despite what I did and like your dh my ex struggles to find something in common with him as ds2 only likes to play computer games etc and no interest in sports etc unlike ds1 who shares interests with Exh. Sometimes you just get on better with one child more than other doesnt mean you don't love them same.

I think trying to start clean slate is good idea and working out rules that are important and those that are just not worth arguing about is a plan.

SuperWifeandmum I hope karma doesn't bite you on your mean spirited, insensitive, vicious arse. Horrible horrible poster and a name I won't forget on here.

thatsucks I wouldn't treat my children in the way the OP and her husband are treating their son so I doubt karma will come knocking on my door.

Depression/anxiety is not a get-out-of-jail-free card. We still ought to be self-aware and work our hardest to avoid damaging behaviours, however ingrained in us they may be.

This, really. And as the adult, it is up to your DH to step up and make the effort (and set an example) to start trying to repair the relationship.

It does seem as if he makes an effort with your ds1 and your ds3, but not with your ds2. I imagine this is not un-noticed by your ds2.

Choose your battles with ds2. Not everything needs to be a battleground.

Jesus, pot and kettle there thatsucks

You posted because it's hard and you want advice or to off load.

To say you're a crap mum, or crap parents, is monstrous. If you were crap, you wouldn't give a shit, but you do.

I would tell DS2 how much you love him and you'll be there for him (while also putting in place some boundaries/consistency) and plead with your husband to put on a united front with no negative comments.

Teenagers are difficult and life is hard. It doesn't make us crap parents if we're struggling to deal with it all.

Good luck x

sticks this has been ongoing for 4 years and she's only asking for advice now? Her son has had to deal with his fathers shit for 4 years while she has done nothing about it.

I cannot comprehend how anyone can agree with the OP here.

popalot thank you. There is a lot of truth in your post, and yes, I do worry that DS2 is anxious and may be struggling like his dad. Yes, there are a lot of similarities between them. I may copy and paste your response and show it to DH.
When I started the thread, there has just been a blow up - as with many threads I read on here it was a quick reaction to a current situation. I know things can't go on as they are but that doesn't mean it is like it 24/7/365. DH does say those horrible things at those times, but today has been helping DS2 with his homework, laughing and joking with him. I was looking for advice to make a sustainable change, which popalot has understood, as well as some other posters earlier on the thread.

superwifeandmum i hope you can live up to your username. Just because this was the first time I have posted here about this doesn't mean it has been left unchecked for any period of time at all. I can appreciate you may have a low opinion of me, that is your right on an anonymous internet forum, but you have made a massive amount of assumptions.

Thank you again to the people who have understood, and offered support and advice. Everyone who has responded has a valid point of view, and I will be saving the thread and referring back to it as I talk to DH, and move forward after a lovely family day.

We are all crap mums at times, IMHO. But I do think the problem is with your DH and picking your fights. When my dd was being particularly difficult and intransigent, I did not try to correct her minor wrongdoings, I would pick the most important thing that was causing problems and let all the other stuff go. Actually in the case of your DS2, they seem to be all very minor things.

DH is having treatment, both counselling and medication for his stress/depression. He can go for long periods of accepting DS2's behaviour, but then it all gets too much for him and he blows. He doesn't seem to be able to start with a clean slate, and so each little careless thing mounts up cumulatively, with him saying things like 'He (DS2) always..../he never....'

'You always/you never' is emotional abuse.
It is not an attempt to solve a problem.
It is your H dumping his own anxieties (I agree 100% with Popalot here) on a handy victim.
It is a case of lashing out, a put-down and an accusation to which there is no comeback, no defence, and its effect is always to hurt.
Your DH is deliberately seeking to make himself feel superior and better about himself when he does this.
It is emotional and psychological abuse and it has to stop.

I'm not necessarily trying to defend my DH, just explain more clearly, he had a crap family life as a child, so I suspect mega punishments were dished out, and his emotional needs were ignored.
Well yes you are trying to defend him here.
You are placing his behaviour not in the context of its effect on DS's childhood but in the context of his own past, thus ignoring the fact that your son, in his childhood, has emotional and even his physical needs that are being ignored, treated as a nuisance, a drain on family finances, and unacceptable. His normal behaviour which is a part of his social-emotional and even neurological development (teens are frequently scatterbrained and untidy) is seen as an aberration.
You can dance as much as you like around the idea that his room is not really all that cold and frankly that detail is a random one and was random at the time your H decided to do what he did -- the basic fact here wrt the heater is that your DH was one day casting around for a cat to kick for reasons that are entirely in his own head, and DS was 'it'; hence a movable object in his room was taken.
You need to stop looking at causes on your DH's side and be concerned only at the effect on your son of the words your DH uses and the pattern of obsessive negativity and harsh behaviour towards him. Your husband is abusing your son.
The emotional and psychological abuse is worse and will have a far deeper and longer lasting effect than the removal of the heater and the xbox.

I do love all my DS's, DS2 takes up more of my brain space, I worry about him a lot, he seems so unhappy. DS3 probably takes more time as he is 4 so needs more attention. DS1 is 15, fairly self sufficient, providing he has enough food, and has a wider variety of interests and friends.
DH is the only person in your family whose emotional needs you are attending to here. To that extent, you are enabling the emotional abuse by him of your children.
DS1 has learned not to show emotional needs and has found a group of friends to meet them.
DS3 has physical needs and what emotional needs he has can be attended to pretty easily as he is so young.
DS2 has exposed the dysfunction in your family by refusing to adapt as DS1 has and be 'self sufficient' and happy to be fed and watered. Make no mistake, DS1 is suffering too except he doesn't show it, and you are satisfied that since he doesn't occupy your brain space he is ok. Adaptation and not rocking the boat is very often a feature of oldest children in any family but it is a feature of oldest siblings that is especially found in a dysfunctional family like yours.

Love isn't a feeling you have towards your children that makes you feel a glow inside you. It is not an abstract thing. It is a verb. It is a behaviour that must have an effect on children. Above all it must function to keep children safe. You are torn here between your H and your children because your H has created this tension over the course of many years when you thought your children had needs that were easily met, so H could occupy as much brain space as you would allow him to. Because your H has a more dominant personality perhaps, and because DS1 was the oldest and because he was able to adapt to the emotional unbalance in the family, your DH got away with keeping you in orbit around him and his needs. This dance around DH needs to stop.

The bottom line here is that your DH MUST take responsibility for what he is doing to his children. Their role in your world is not to adapt to DH and his unhealthy needs. Their role is to have their needs met by their parents. Please read and re-read Popalot's excellent post and do whatever it takes to make your DH approach his very unhealthy anxiety response with his counsellor.

I know my words are blunt here, and I know they are harsh.
I know you are posting because somewhere in your heart you know what is going on isn't right, and I have sympathy for you because the elephant in the room that you are trying to work around is a really big one. But the elephant can't stay there.

that doesn't mean it is like it 24/7/365. DH does say those horrible things at those times, but today has been helping DS2 with his homework, laughing and joking with him.

In a situation between a husband and wife, horrible words followed by good times is called the cycle of abuse. In the situation with a child and a parent, it is also a cycle of abuse.

You are trying to see the glass half full here. Please stop. You are clutching at straws, trying to see reassurance that there isn't really a problem. Your optimism is not your friend here, and it is not a friend to your children.

Despite what you saw today, your DS is always waiting for the other shoe to fall and if you were to scratch beneath the surface you would find that he does not trust his father not to turn nasty.

Poor lad. Give him back his xbox and show him some love.