To be heartily hacked off with this situation (DS2 and DH a bit)

[sausageandorangepickle]

DS2 (13) regularly does low level but annoying 'naughty' things like leaving lights/tv/heater on in his room when he comes down stairs, taking treat food that was meant for the whole family or specifically for DS3 (4), not getting up on time, not turning lights/tv off when asked at night. Just writing this down makes it look so superficial, but it is all the time, and we need to nag and nag and nag to get him to do anything. We have explained why these things are a problem -electricity bill, disturbing others, being greedy, lazy etc and he is a really bright boy so he knows the effect his behaviour is having on others around him.

DH (and yes, he is DS2's dad) and I have totally different views on how to deal with it. DH thinks he needs to be punished, and has taken his x-box away, months ago now, to encourage DS2 to do more physical activity, but DS2 has just moved to watching You Tube videos of other people playing x-box. DH has taken the heater out of DS2's bedroom because he always seemed to leave it on. He makes massive threats and has huge rants at DS2, but the behaviour never seems to change.

I on the other hand, keep trying to make peace with DS2, trying to work out why he is behaving this way, helping him out, I guess I am too soft, as I want to believe every reason he gives for his behaviour, but whatever I do, doesn't change the way he is either.

I don't think it is all about teenage hormones as it has been this way for 4/5 years now. I think it is probably more about his place in the family, there is a small gap between him and DS1, and then 9 years between him and DS3.

I don't know what to do. DH is so pissed off he says things like 'he's just a bad one' and that he can't be bothered with him any more, he doesn't want to talk to him or spend time with him (to me, about DS2, not directly to him).

So, AIBU to be pissed off and confused? and has the collective might of mumsnet got any advice for me? Sorry about the essay!

'DH suffers from stress and depression, he is a perfectionist, sets ridiculously high standards for himself and others. Yes, whoever asked, he can be difficult to live with, but it is not all his fault - he didn't ask to be ill.'

Depression is an illness and it is treatable.
Anyone suffering from depression can go for help, and learn strategies to ensure family members do not suffer, and learn to be receptive and to take on board input from family members when they are heading off the 'wagon' so to speak and hurting other people. Depression is not a get out of jail free card, and family members just have to put up with whatever is dished out at them.

Stress is manageable. Stress is also a phony baloney excuse for people who get a kick from seeing others miserable and ensuring the 'stressed' person and their moods is the centre of everyone's attention. If your H uses stress as an excuse for temper or poor treatment of others but isn't actually trying to manage his stress, then if I were you I would suspect he just enjoys having others walk on eggshells around him.

Setting ridiculously high standards for yourself is all right, but taking it out on others if those standards can't be met is not, and if this is happening then this is a bad thing.

Setting ridiculously high standards for others is downright abusive, has nothing whatsoever to do with depression, and has to stop.

Your DH sounds like a narcissist, frankly.

Like others have mentioned, my focus would be on relationships here. If I were you, I would start with myself. So, your relationship with DS2 and also your relationship with DH.

Do you think you could have a non confrontational talk with your DH to find out where this hostility towards your son is coming from? It is likely to be a very difficult subject and if it were me I would approach it very carefully. Does your DH feel valued and respected in the family? It sounds to me like your DH feels disempowered, thus trying to exert forceful control over DS2. Does he have good relationships with your other children? Is there any skill DH has that DS2 would be interested in learning? A mentor-apprentice activity works wonders for fathers and sons.

How is your relationship with DH? Do you value him, respect him, build him up and encourage him? Are you as gentle with him as you are with DS2? Men carry their pride in fragile packages and have very specific and different needs to us, in my opinion. If these are not being met, this can breed frustration which may be taken out (wrongly) on your son.

In terms of your relationship with DS2... do you know what he wants out of life? Does he have direction, goals, ambitions, passions that you know about? He is 3 years away from potentially having some adult freedoms, and only 5 years away from adulthood. Labelling any behaviour of his as 'naughty' seems that you think of him as a child rather than a young adult. Parents often say they will treat their children as adults when they behave like adults, but I think it happens more the other way round. When we treat them with respect, taking a true interest in their thoughts feelings etc and allow them true responsibility, they flourish. Like it or not, they are developing freedoms and an independence of you that you can help or hinder. It is not his job to remember to turn the lights off, or to switch the heater off, or to consider the bills of the household. His job is to navigate the crazy waters of adolescence and impending adulthood, work out who he is, where he wants to go, what he wants from life. In my view, it is your job to assist him, though it takes a huge amount of relationship-building in order for a parent to be trusted with a teenager's innermost experiences, fears, dreams etc. To me, the turning off heaters etc will only be done as a sign of respect for your relationship.

If you want him to be a 'good child' and toe your line, then I believe you are underestimating the inner experiences he may be going through. Your DH sounds like his mind is so full of his own experiences he has little space left for empathy at present. It seems it will fall on you to be the empathetic understanding one of the family, as is so often the role of mothers.

The reason I suggest this is DH seems to be ok with DS1, despite depression and stress.

This stands out for me. You say this behavior started 4/5 years ago. Was this when you got pregnant and had no. 3? So overnight he went from favoured youngest to persona non grata.
I think you need to look at how your expectations changed about him at that point and maybe think if that had an effect his behavior.

All the stuff you describe is really normal. I'm not sure kids remember to turn switches off until they're paying the bills and 13 yr olds have hollow legs.

Maybe the central issue here is that the youngest one gets treats that are specifically for him. That's really not equitable/not cool. One of my friends has triplets... imagine if one of the triplets got a treat that was off limits to the other two!

The transgressions that are getting him a lot of heat off both your husband and you are, to be honest, minor - even if they do cause anxiety.

Your DH needs to get professional help with his depression and stress - it sounds like the relationship with DS2 is creating a vicious circle there.

Some of the comments here are a bit much. I don't think the OP came on here to have her character assassinated.

Taking the heater out is spot on (although he should be given a way of earning it back). Unless he has a massive isolated room, his room will get plenty of warmth from the rest of the house. Labelling him 'a bad one' is destructive, though. He will sense this and act up to it.

I have a 13 year old who is lazy, selfish, never turns lights off, never picks socks and pants off the floor. It's incredibly annoying but normal.

I totally agree there is no point doing these heavy handed, OTT punishments.

What I do is if ds leaves socks downstairs, I make him go and get them. If he leaves light on upstairs, make him go up and turn it off. It does actually work if I stick to that as he's lazy and remembers he doesn't want to go up and down the stairs several times! That is 'punishment' enough.

I have friends who ground their son, take X box away etc etc over minor misdemeanours and it's made him worse - honestly. He's such an angry kid.

Your sin sounds like a completely normal teen. Your husband on the other hand is abusive. I am really disturbed by this thread and I used to be a child protection social worker. It sounds to me that your husband is emotionally abusive and your son is neglected. No heater in this weather?!

Right, I've read all the messages, there are too many to namecheck but I do appreciate people's opinions on this, even if some of them are quite harsh.

A few things to clear up - the heater. His room is ok without it, if a little on the cool side, the heater is supposed to be an extra, a top up. DS1 has one as well and very rarely puts it on at all, but DS2 will go upstairs to fetch something, put it on and then come back down for hours, so is heating an empty room. He has not been left in an icebox.

DH is having treatment, both counselling and medication for his stress/depression. He can go for long periods of accepting DS2's behaviour, but then it all gets too much for him and he blows. He doesn't seem to be able to start with a clean slate, and so each little careless thing mounts up cumulatively, with him saying things like 'He (DS2) always..../he never....'

I'm not necessarily trying to defend my DH, just explain more clearly, he had a crap family life as a child, so I suspect mega punishments were dished out, and his emotional needs were ignored.

I do love all my DS's, DS2 takes up more of my brain space, I worry about him a lot, he seems so unhappy. DS3 probably takes more time as he is 4 so needs more attention. DS1 is 15, fairly self sufficient, providing he has enough food, and has a wider variety of interests and friends.

I get that you are going to say DS2 is unhappy because of DH, but I think it is more of a cycle than that, and they are making each other unhappy. Yes I know DH is the adult and is the one who is in a position to make changes.

To the posters who say I am a crap mum, well if I was I wouldn't be so worried about this, would I? I know things are far from perfect, and this was a step to making it better. You are entitled to your opinion, but that seems very harsh.

Please ignore people saying you are not a good mother. As you say you care deeply and you are trying to do right by three children and your husband.

I do however feel it's vital to challenge your husband on his more unreasonable/angry behaviour - you are right, he is wrong. He is overreacting and pushing your son away.

Also it's very very important your son can see that you are not enabling your husband's behaviour - that you will protect him from h's excesses.

It's very hard sweetheart

The whole situation just seems so sad to me.

DS1 is 12 and I can see already that there are so many changes going on for him, school stress and growing up, that he really needs so much love and support. I just cannot imagine how much more traumatic growing up would be if he didn't have myself and his dad to support him and ensure he feels loved and secure.

Of course children need consistent and proportional punishment when they do things wrong but I really can't see anything that is such a big deal about the stuff you are describing your do doing.

I grew up with parents who were emotionally very cold and I am certainly not like that with my children. I am very aware of the impact it had on me and I strive every day to be more understanding and emotionally supportive of my own children. Crap childhood is not an excuse for being a crap parent ime.

You need to protect ds2 op because it's clear your dh won't. What concerns me is you do seem to be excusing his actions and are very quick to defend your do rather than stand up for your ds2.

But DS2s behavior is normal teenage behavior, so how can your DH claim to be being made unhappy by something that is normal?

Of course, parents can be frustrated and annoyed by their children, but its up to them as parents to deal with that.

Your DS2 has no say over your DHs mental health. He is not setting the high standards your DH expects. Parents cant take their childrens behavior personally, which is what it sounds like your DH is doing.

I can see nothing in any of your posts that warrants you saying they both make each other happy. The issues here are entirely your DHs and you are letting your son down by refusing to acknowledge that and act accordingly.

Your thread title said it all, you are hacked off with Ds2 and dh a bit. This is wrong. Your ds2's behaviour and attitude is entirely normal for a teen. Your dh is being completely unreasonable. Often people abused in childhood become abusers. You need to break this circle. It's up to you to protect your children.

Sorry just noticed my post should say unhappy not happy.

He can go for long periods of accepting DS2's behaviour, but then it all gets too much for him and he blows. He doesn't seem to be able to start with a clean slate, and so each little careless thing mounts up cumulatively, with him saying things like 'He (DS2) always..../he never....'

I have realised (learnt over time ) the importance of the clean slate principle. Whatever kids do, it's so important to move on after addressing whatever it is, and for them to have a continued sense of being loved and supported.

If your husband could find (or be persuaded to find) other ways of thinking and behaving around your son, that could make a big difference to your son's happiness and the tension in your home.

Your poor son.

I you won't protect him from this then who will?

You can keep making excuses for DH behaviour but the reason so many people have been harsh on you is because we can see that you are failing DS2 and putting DH needs above his.

Please think about what has been said. Do you really think we are all wrong and you are right?

You can do timers for everything like certain lights (bedside), heaters etc.

Also if on holidays and your DS missses the alarm and stays in bed and wastes the day surely that's up to him?! Teenagers need more sleep anyway and if he realises he's missed most of the morning at holiday times that's down to him. If you've organised something though (esp sports) that you've paid for then you'd be right to be annoyed.

Your son is also not 'bad' (heaven help him if he had to deal with my tearaway teen brother!).

Taking things away or hiding them as you've seen only makes DH seem like the bad Guy and you the good one. If you lock treats away not fair.

You could do a reward chart - eg if DS2 remembers to turn off lights etc at the end of 1 month he'll get a reward. This can go for other DC too.

Finally can't your DH as someone else said either after work or weekends make an effort with DS? Take him out, to sports etc?

Ps I'm just reading about your DH depression etc. In no way should this impact on your ds2.

being a good mum involves much more than just being in the middle here

your son needs you more than your dh does, simple as that

but you are making excuses for your dh...he had a bad childhood/he didnt ask to be ill etc etc

have you said once that your ds's behaviour, whilst extremely annoying, is extremely typical of 13 yr old boys??

no, theres no excuses for him, just his dad.

poor boy.

You're not a crap mum. But you do need to do more in terms of action rather than anguish, on behalf of your son.

I think your DH needs to explore his own patterns of thought and behaviour. His outbursts are not actually to do with your son but are a reflection of what's going on in his mind. If he can cope with your son's behaviour most of the time then it's unfair for him to react so strongly every so often due to his own problems managing stress or whatever it is. He needs to be clear with his son and say, I'm sorry I overreacted. It's not you, it's me. I will try harder not explode. Please forgive me for taking my stress out on you.

Your son should not be blamed for your husband's inability to regulate his moods.

I agree with pp that your dh is more of a problem in this than your thread title makes out.

About the sleeping - I can still remember the utter bone crunching weariness and inability to get out of bed in the morning as a teenager. And my mother constantly nagging me about wasting the day when there was nothing planned. He's not just being lazy, teenagers' sleep patterns genuinely change and they need a lot of sleep for all that growing and brain changing.

Also, your son is not making your husband unhappy. He does that all by himself. Whether it's the illness or not is immaterial.

As teenagers around that age my sibling and I slept until 1pm on weekends and holidays; mum brought us a cup of tea at that point. I am with pp, this is all normal for your DS2.

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