To think that Islamic state will cause world war 3

[ReallyTired]

I feel terrified for the future. I believe that the world will reach a point where there will be outright war to stop Islamic state. In the meantime Russia will annexe the Ukraine and much of Eastern Europe.

I am scared that Islamic state will get hold of atomic weapons. There are Muslim extremists with the intelligence to make a nuclear bomb. There are Muslim countries with uranium deposits.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining#/media/File:Uranium_production_world.PNG

Moan totally agree about the Rotherham issue and the outrage directed at the twat Nigel Farrage.

No mass demonstrations in protest of abused children.

As I have always thought Rotherham wasn't a religious or race issue it was an issue of good girls and 'slags' old vile myths perpetrated by the abusers, the lasy police and hopeless SS of all sexes. Shameful.

Cafe I have tried for years to get posters to understand the difference between race and religion but it doesn't go in. You criticise Islam and you get called racist.

It used to be a sure fire way of shutting down debate and criticism.

Thankfully not any more.

It's ok to talk about race/religion/immigration ever since poor old Gordon got caught out by the elderly labour voter and then had the hilarious day from hell apologising and ass licking.

I have too, Love and been continually called a racist bigot for my pains. (Not just me). I have noticed an air of change, though, since Charlie Hebdo.

The only positive thing to come out of recent events such as the Paris and Copenhagen massacres is that I think the world has now woken up to the evils of Islamic fundamentalism. People now realise that it threatens the values we hold most dear and indeed our lives.

What did for ordinary Germans and allowed the Nazis to get in was that most people didn't realise quite how loony they were until too late. This time, we've been forewarned. We know where tolerating intolerance gets us and we know we have to make a stand now.

I mean, read about what it's like to be woman living under ISIS - not even allowed into the maternity hospital to give birth unless you've got all your multiple abayas, veils etc on. Not allowed out without a male relative so no male relative = not allowed out at all. All hairdressers shut. Women must wear multiple black abayas, veils, gloves in black even in extreme heat.

They're fucking loons.

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/17/isis-orders-women-iraq-syria-veils-gloves

Bar a few psychopaths, I refuse to believe they have widespread support. You can keep people in check through fear in the short term but it has never, ever been a long term solution. ISIS will fall.

Y y to the above posts andango I bloody hope you are right.

Yes cafe ashamed to admit that in past years being called racist when I know I am not would be enough to shut me up both on mumsnet and in RL.

Not anymore. We need to fight racism as much as we fight mysogynistic and barbaric religious customs of FGM/MGM, forced marriage and domestic violence, control of women and girls and assalts on free speech.

I've often found it interesting how the total conviction of the British empire's unique and exceptional moral superiority that you see in colonialists circa 1900 has translated, without missing a beat, into the 21st century liberal's total conviction of the British empire's unique and exceptional moral wickedness. There's lots of that on this thread. But in both cases there's a conviction that there is something unique and exceptional about the British empire. In fact there's nothing of the sort; in fact, in the long parade of empires throughout the ages I think you could argue it was no crueller or more rapacious than most and much more benign than many.

In my view people minimising the atrocities committed by Islamists in the name of post-imperial guilt are suffering from a kind of inverted self-importance, as though the crimes of the British empire are somehow exceptionally special and bad when in reality it was just an empire, doing what empires have always done.

Oh I think the British Empire had its fair share of incompetents too, who glided along, getting things muddled, on the coattails of luxury provided by those organising things OTheHugeManatee.

I think alot of the working classes in the U K were badly off regardless of the Empire.

Not allowed out without a male relative so no male relative = not allowed out at all

These views are a lot closer to home than you might think. Currently being taught by amongst others British born and trained Shaykh Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari, who teaches Islam to young boys and girls in Leciester and is a regular guest speaker at Universities around the UK. www.jameah.co.uk.

Here's his views on women travelling from his own website:
Generally, it is impermissible for a woman to travel the distance of three days (equivalent to 48 miles) without her husband or a Mahram (unmarriageable kin) accompanying her
www.daruliftaa.com/node/4774?txt_QuestionID=

On women's dress:
It is clear from the above that a female must cover herself fully before coming in front of non-Mahram men. Even the hands and feet should be concealed, if possible
www.daruliftaa.com/node/4642?txt_QuestionID=

For anybody needing any further advice on any matter here's the main page on women's issues
www.daruliftaa.com/taxonomy/term/14

Maybe it helps that I'm not English, then so have never had the slightest post-imperial guilt. How ridiculous. It's hardly as though Muslim empires have been sweetness and light, historically, is it?

Manatee, I agree. It is possible to say that imperialism is wrong, and then to add that some empires were much more violent and oppressive than others.

IS make my blood run cold. I'm no fan of Vlad either.

I've met a lot of Zimbabweans who are nostalgic for the days of Ian Smith.

But the past is the past and we are where we are.

The worrying fact is that IS does have a lot of support. It's not a network of isolated cells like Al Quaeda. It has enough followers to field an army in Iraq and is becoming a powerful force elsewhere. It doesn't deal in hearts and minds but barbaric force.

Fear certainly can be a long-term solution. The Roman Emperors - 'let them hate so long as they fear', the USSR, Hitler's Germany, Saddam's Iraq, China.

In my view people minimising the atrocities committed by Islamists in the name of post-imperial guilt are suffering from a kind of inverted self-importance, as though the crimes of the British empire are somehow exceptionally special and bad when in reality it was just an empire, doing what empires have always done.

I dont see anyone minimising IS atrocities, just people looking for an explanation of the extraordinary conditions that have led to the rise of extremism.
I also don't see anyone singling out the British empire as exceptionally special and bad either. I already stated half of europe was in Africa in the 19th century.
Your willingness to minimise the impact of post-colonialism on the development of nations is probably because you have no folk memory of your nation actually being colonised. Its been 2000 years since the Romans. Its been 70 years since the partition of India and only 25 since the first gulf war.

Thymeout - Hitler's Germany only lasted 12 years start to finish. Not long. The USSR did not make the mistake of pissing off as much as half the population ie all the women - and you forget quite how bad life was for ordinary Russians before Communism - they didn't exactly have a lot of positive experiences of democracy to compare it with (still don't).

But people in Iraq and Syria have recent memories of a much more civilised lifestyle. That ISIS make life under Assad or Saddam look good is saying something, but at least women could work, people could practice other faiths, girls of 9 weren't married of etc etc etc. I don't get the sense the local population support them widely - most of the fighters are imported foreigners so easy to remove.

Afghanistan in the 60's and 70's was a regular hotspot for jetsetters, women were educated and free.

Yep that's true about Afghanistsn and a lot of try middle East sheba all this mysogynistic bollocks is very new really.

How I hate and detest organised and brutal gangs of psychopaths hiding behind religions.

Most religions have suffered that way. It's the turn of the Muslim religion now.

All religions have been there.

People in Hungary, Czechoslovakia, East Germany, the Baltic states, Poland had memories of much better times pre-war. Any attempt to gain independence was ruthlessly squashed.

A lot of women in Muslim countries do not feel oppressed. They have been brainwashed. Even here, there were many women against the suffragettes in the early days.

A lot of damage can be done in 12 years. WW2 for a start.

I think if it were so easy to get rid of foreign IS fighters, that would have been done and we would not be in this position. They are strong because the govts in those countries are weak.

Thymeout - eastern Europe only suffered for 45 years - still not that long. And life in Communist Poland, say, was not materially worse, at least in the initial phase of post-war destruction than it was before or would have been in the absence of Communism - life was pretty shit everywhere in the immediate post-war period. Yes, they lacked liberty but they weren't being forced to wear a black shroud every bloody day, they were allowed to work, girls weren't being married at 9. People will tolerate a lot - life under ISIS sounds pretty bloody intolerable to me at the moment.

Thymeout - I am certainly not saying it is easy to get rid of ISIS. And I agree that many people are brainwashed. But many are not and I think their numbers are greater. The more horrific their actions, the more ordinary decent people can see them for what they are and the more opposition to them grows.

One mistake ISIS is making is to make public their worst aspects. The Nazis kept them hidden until they were in control. ISIS believe it will help them attract psychopaths tp their cause, which it will, and control others by fear, which will only be partially successful. As we have seen ISIS's actions against Egyptians and Jordanians haven't made the Egyptian and Jordanian governments back off in fear - quite the reverse.

45 years is most of a lifetime!

You can't say 'Yes they lacked liberty' as if that's a minor point! I sometimes think, 'Never mind about To Kill A Mockingbird'. Why isn't 1984 on the GCSE syllabus?' Having to wear a burka is the least of the indignities of living in a totalitarian state with secret police and spies. The Hitler Youth? Telling tales about their own families.

Ordinary, decent people, in sufficient numbers, do not rise up against a brutal tyranny unless THEIR lives are made intolerable and they have nothing to lose. It was never more than a few who tried to get rid of Hitler. There was popular support for his anti-Semitic legislation. Saddam committed atrocities against the marsh Arabs and the Kurds which people did know about. But the ones who might have led a revolution were in exile., or executed. I once discussed the gassing of the Kurds with a Sunni young woman. 'But they're not Arab,' she said. With an airy wave of her hand.

Life was hard for everyone after WW2 - the Dutch were starving and we were financing the relief work in Germany when living through austerity ourselves in a bankrupt country. But from the 50's onwards, the West became more prosperous and the gap between us and the countries on the other side of the Iron Curtain was v obvious. That's why travel was so restricted.

And what about China? The Cultural Revolution? People will put up with an awful lot if they're frightened for themselves and their families.

Egypt, Jordan? IS are not in control there yet. They are acting because they see them as a threat. Rather belatedly.

On a business trip to Egypt recently, my son got friendly with someone working at his hotel. He said he found it difficult to understand religious intolerance, because he was an atheist. The Egyptian said that he was, too, but he could never admit that. Your religion is recorded on your ID card at birth and apostasy does not go well if you're a muslim and don't want to be.

I wonder if Obama has put pressure on Egypt and Jordan to take action with those planes we have sold them? It should be the Arab world sorting out their co-religionists in the Middle East, just as South Africa should have taken a firmer line with Mugabe.

Thymeout - I agree that people will put up with a lot. My point was that ISIS actions go beyond the 'lot' that people are prepared to put up with. Being spied on, being told what job to do - OK. Having your daughter being sold as a sex slave aged 9 or never ever being allowed to leave the house not clad head to toe in black, with a male relative - not OK. No education for women, most jobs closed to them, ever-present likelihood of violent attack or rape on some spurious grounds or no grounds. There is no real system of law - it is currently the law of the jungle. Societ falls apart very quickly like that. People need some certainties to build life on.

I have relatives who lived in communist East Germany. We visited them. It was spartan compared to the West, and the lack of liberty was palpable BUT life for ordinary people was liveable, manageable. People were given reasonable homes, all of them, jobs, all of them, enough food, all of them (even if you had to queue and the food was a bit repetitive and boring, there was enough of it). Medical care was OK. Education was good. Yes, to achieve top jobs it helped (though was not essential) to be affiliated to the Communist Party. But life for ordinary people was bearable for all that. It was routine and you knew what to expect. That's why it took until 1989 for the East Germans to bother to throw off the yoke. It was bearable.

Life in Syria or Iraq under ISIS is just not bearable. It is not routine. Basic necessities are not there. That's why I don't think it will last.

Islamic State?! you do know it doesn't exist.

Sheba Your willingness to minimise the impact of post-colonialism on the development of nations is probably because you have no folk memory of your nation actually being colonised. Its been 2000 years since the Romans

On a total tangent, I've often wondered if a lot of the class divides and issues in the UK are some sort of remnant of the Norman Conquest, which divided up former patterns of land ownership and introduced something totally alien, and whether we would be more similar to countries like Holland and Germany if it had not been for that.

Thymeout He said he found it difficult to understand religious intolerance, because he was an atheist. The Egyptian said that he was, too, but he could never admit that. Your religion is recorded on your ID card at birth and apostasy does not go well if you're a muslim and don't want to be.

On a related but again total tangenital note, the Scottish Government is planning to introduced electronic ID records on all Scottish citizens which record such information, along with their health records, ownership of property, etc.!

I've never had personal dealings with Islamic State/ Daesh, it's true...