To think that Islamic state will cause world war 3

[ReallyTired]

I feel terrified for the future. I believe that the world will reach a point where there will be outright war to stop Islamic state. In the meantime Russia will annexe the Ukraine and much of Eastern Europe.

I am scared that Islamic state will get hold of atomic weapons. There are Muslim extremists with the intelligence to make a nuclear bomb. There are Muslim countries with uranium deposits.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_mining#/media/File:Uranium_production_world.PNG

I grew up in inner city East London in a borough where a vast majority of families and school pupils are muslim. I went to school in this borough and not once did I have a segregated swimming lesson. My siblings are now attending school in the same borough and have none of these problems. These issues are generally jumped on by knee-jerk daily mail readers who believe the (99%) crap being fed to them by the media.

On a separate note, I don't get the outrage about the halal meat thing. Like we think any other way or killing animals is more humane? It isn't, and I speak from experience.

Also I find the expectation that muslims should 'condemn' IS murders and other acts of terrorism offensive and insulting. I don't recall all white people in Europe being asked to condemn the Anders Brievik murders in Norway.

I'm one of those tolerant people who cry 'islamophobe' if I hear any general criticism of Islam. I'm the left leaning liberal who constantly reminds people that it's a small violent minority committing atrocities. But recently even I have started to wonder if we're just slowly sleep walking into a situation which will get more and more uncontrollable. A lot of what Islam stands for is in stark conrast with what we stand for in the west. And thanks to the tens If not hundreds of millions isil have accrued thanks to regimes who happily pay for the release of their hostages, they have a lot of power and capability.
I'd like to see religious schools outlawed. All of them. Catholic, Muslim, Jewish etc.
I think we need to monitor extremists more closely, protect our borders more vigorously.
I think we are days away from a Charlie hebdo style attack in the UK and I just wonder how far isis will be allowed to go before we take decisive action.

WiltsWonder15

The recent deaths in Sydney, Paris and Copenhagen are bad enough but it is the reaction to them that shows how what was once considered the 'traditional West' is losing this battle.

Can you explain please. Genuine question. Apologies of you've done this already - not RTFT yet. This issue is also on my mind quite a lot too.

That would probably be because most white people (most people regardless of background even?) did condemn Anders Brievik actions.

misspantomime On a separate note, I don't get the outrage about the halal meat thing. Like we think any other way or killing animals is more humane? It isn't, and I speak from experience.

I also speak from experience (father was a slaughterman/butcher, farming background), and I object to it being insinuated I'm ignorant and lies being spread. If there is a more humane, modern method of slaughter available it should be used. Non-stun slaughter has just been banned in Denmark, its standard practice to stun in many non-Muslim countries, such as Malaysia, and yes, animals do feel pain/can suffer. Its simply more humane to ensure their ending is as stress-free as possible. Even if you don't care about that and believe all the platitudes, who wants to eat meat tainted by stress hormones?

Animal welfare practices in the Muslim regions which still use outdated methods of non-stun slaughter are hardly ones we want to follow. People keep mentioning it here because theres not a majority demand for non-stun halal slaughter, not because they are ignorant.

And this in the same week as:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shopping-and-consumer-news/11384505/Secret-halal-slaughterhouse-film-reveals-horrific-animal-abuse.html

Can you not see the difference between Anders Brievik and IS? He was a psychopath acting on his own. He may have had fascist leanings but he wasn't killing for a cause.

IS have a political/religious objective. They cite their religion as a reason for killing the unbelievers.

The parallel would be the anti-war demonstration pre-Iraq war, when people took to the streets to dissociate themselves from a government, all parties, acting in their name.

I do get concerned they will be used an excuse for WW3 by more powerful players. Just like the Nazis, these thugs are being funded and armed... by whom and to what ends? People would do well to question who funded the Nazis too because the truth is very disturbing. Many of the concerns I have are not motivated by being a "liberal left leaning multiculti" who thinks anyone with a brown skin is automatically a victim, it's that our families were targeted by fascists in the past and these were not Muslims. Then we had mass immigration to provide the cheap labour and replace those who were eliminated/gave up for those who did well out of the catastrophes of the 20th C. Now, with some justice, they are panicking because the demographic changes wrought by their past policies mean they are teetering on being a still financially powerful but now demographically obsolete elite. I live in an area where there are many Muslim doctors, real estate agents, teachers, scientists. Who exactly are we supposed to single out?

but is every christian in england expected to march when some fundamentalist christian group in america does something? no. can you ask yourself why you expect muslims to do it? why you see them as all lumped in together and not christians? why you can differentiate between and make accountable christians here who are law abiding citizens and a fundamentalist/facist group claiming to be christians commiting an atrocity elsewhere but can't do the same for muslims?

it is really important to examine ourselves and our attitudes and expectations of groups who fall into the category of 'other' to be sure of what we're basing our views and feelings on.

as for WW3 i think we've been in it for some time but it's very different to and would never like earlier 'world wars'. if you look at repeated attacks by america and it's allies upon the gulf region and the implanting of stooge leaders and overthrow of those leaders and various machinations going on for what... decades now and the so called 'war on terror' which knows no boundaries etc - all of this has been a global, organised, many nations, huge alliances etc etc war.

it hasn't been announced as a world war, we've pretended each facet of it has been a separate incident but it is clearly all interrelated and many battles of the same... 'war' or agenda with the same forces pushing for it.

i think it's naive to think we haven't been in a state of world war (albeit a far more complex one with far more sophisticated and shifting battlefield and alliances etc) for at least 25years now.

TheHoneyBadger exactly. I don't understand how people can overlook that.

I'm not saying the Anders Brievik thing wasn't widely condemned. The difference is that white people as a group weren't universally asked to condemn it. David Cameron did not write a letter to all churches in this country asking them to weed out far-right christian extremism.

RE: the halal thing, I just think it's hyprocritical. I'm not sayingthat video isn't horrific but I have seen equally horrific goings-on in a regular abbatoir. People don't usually give a stuff where their KFC chicken comes from but suddenly when it's halal it's this massive outrage.

TheHoneyBadger can you ask yourself why you expect muslims to do it?

Because of the way Muslim society is organised, based on the teachings and pronouncements of religious leaders being given great authority, yes, I would expect to see a few demonstrations of this publicly at least. Since the agreement of the people is seen by some as a legal legitimisation in Sharia equivalent to law, then its actually even more important than in countries where we have a clear separation of government, legislature and judiciary.

These are ongoing mass murders, done to attract publicity for a political cause, not one-off, unrelated acts by individuals acting alone. So, yes, I would have expected to see Muslim religious leaders leading large scale public protests against them, as was shown to be clearly possible by the anti-Charlie Hebdo demonstration, which was in my opinion, in very poor taste. Particularly when Muslims from this country are being radicalised and encouraged to fight abroad for IS.

but is every christian in england expected to march when some fundamentalist christian group in america does something? I don't expect every Muslim to do it. I would have expected to see some Muslim religious leaders leading large scale condemnations of the murders, yes.

but is every christian in england expected to march when some fundamentalist christian group in america does something? no

Breath taking, wow, can you really compare ISIS to Funamentalists in Amercia?

Really?

If you think what they do is on a par with ISIS?

Maybe you could show me some direct comparisons, Because I cant see it. Lets start with the throwing gay people off roofs and beheading, oh and the emoliation in a cage.

if apathy and lack of political engagement was a crime chandler most brits would have been shot a long time ago.

but is every christian in england expected to march when some fundamentalist christian group in america does something? no. can you ask yourself why you expect muslims to do it?

They did march against charlie HEBDO Magazne though, in Parliament recently

I found this article rather disturbing, about the attitude of the Islamic State towards muslims who don't agree with them, and why a lot of muslims do agree with them. Combine this with the black/white view of the world many of us have when we are late teens/early 20s and going through our "idealistic phase" and IS are a bigger problem than we realise What IS Really Want

misspatomime RE: the halal thing, I just think it's hyprocritical. I'm not sayingthat video isn't horrific but I have seen equally horrific goings-on in a regular abbatoir. People don't usually give a stuff where their KFC chicken comes from but suddenly when it's halal it's this massive outrage.

Again, generalising people as being more ignorant than they are. Most of my friends care very much where their meat comes from and have largely stopped eating meat, non-stun slaughter being one of the main reasons. I've never been in a KFC in my life.

I don't think, ethically and morally, animal welfare can be hypocritical. In other words, I think its immoral to have an argument about whether or not a more humane method of treating animals is a good idea or not, as it transcends religion.

We don't really know what is going on in most abbatoirs at all - specific instances occasionally get highlighted. We hope most of them are run well and I'm sure they are, but we don't the scale (if any) of bad practices. And that should also be improved.

The thing I find strange is that the anti-fascist movements that come out in force against thugs such as the EDL seem to have little or nothing to say about fundamentalist Islam.

When you consider that fundamentalist Islam is a misogynistic, anti-feminist, anti-secularist, anti-democratic movement that seeks to bring about a kind of religion-inflected fascism this is particularly strange.

I agree with mishi that some recent events have left me questioning the ability of the liberal creed of 'tolerance' to absorb something as hostile and fundamentally ideologically different as militant Islamism. This is not to say I've anything against your average Muslim in the street. But in its fundamentalist incarnation militant Islam is absolutely a form of fascism and the fact that it's not wearing a peaked cap and swastikas shouldn't mean we can shrug our shoulders and look away.

we were talking about italy and paris a minute ago and those were the posts i was responding to but sure go with hyperbole rather than answer the q's or deal with the actual points raised. because it's preferable right? let's not have a proper conversation let's go back to outrage and disgust and reminding people of the actions of extremists on the other side of the world when trying to discuss normal british citizens here for a moment. let's keep that immediate association fresh in the mind.

ok i give up.

Meechimoo

I think you're change in thinking is mirrored by a lot of people who also previously instinctively veered towards 'protecting Islam' under the guise that attacking it was attacking muslims.

Deliciously ironically IS and the other Islamofascists will be the ones who will be responsible for Islam imploding.

By bringing to the forefront all those abhorrent mores that were practiced by the founder of Islam and his immediate followers, it is forcing both Westerners and muslims to reflect on the morality of this 'faith' and bring critical discussion into the mainstream.

Islam is not going to survive against the combined weight of intellectualism.
It's going to take a long time to defeat this ideology, but it is heartening to me to see the mainstream in the West finally begin to defend universal values and hold Islam to account.

MistressMia I'm afraid I'm not 100% with you in your faith in intellectualism. Universal values ate themselves in the late twentieth century, with the advent of post-modern philosophy. Which is arguably one of the reasons why we are where we are.

Nonetheless if our civilisation is to survive we are going to have to find a way to resist Islamofascism, just like we resist all the other flavours of fascism.

Come on, how much mayhem are fundamentalist christian groups in the US wreaking worldwide right now?

As an aside I see the Westboro baptists are getting on cordially with their neighbours nowadays (whilst still glowing with the belief that the rest of the world are going to hell.)

It is taken as read that all (but perhaps a tiny few and I've never heard anyone actually) think Breivik unacceptable and inexplicable really. However the conspiracy theories around at the moment blaming the US/Israel?the West for Daesh/IS do worry me.

I don't recall all white people in Europe being asked to condemn the Anders Brievik murders in Norway......... What a ridiculous comparison.

Manatee The thing I find strange is that the anti-fascist movements that come out in force against thugs such as the EDL seem to have little or nothing to say about fundamentalist Islam

Possibly racist - Islam is seen as somehow superior and more deserving of sympathy than radical causes in certain other parts of the world?

You see it on here all the time. Posters passionately arguing for tolerance and accusing others of being bigots, but then having absolutely no tolerance for any other valid opposing point of view. Saw it a lot in the Scottish Referendum (intolerance for the other side, one side painted by their supporters as being morally superior, attempts to demonise the other side). I think the common element in both is lack of education. Or partial education.

Come on, how much mayhem are fundamentalist christian groups in the US wreaking worldwide right now?

Yes, apparently according to HoneyBadger I am still waiting to hear why I am sure having made the comparison she will enlighten us and back it up.